RE: The popular notion

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amayos -> RE: The popular notion (11/17/2006 3:16:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. I believe the acronym has expanded considerably in the pursuit of accommodating the mainstream palette. It is for this reason I have been avoiding identifying myself with many of the labels and community-oriented terms that are commonly associated with BDSM—not due to their literal meaning, but the sensual diversion they have come to popularly represent. Some literal terms or ideas I will defend boldly, but I do concede to the plasticity of many others. While I believe sexuality is often a core source of influence behind domination and submission, that is not to say it is always in its rawest, most obvious state—or even a single state. The psychology of sexuality is marbled vast and deep in humans. Take it completely out of the human equation and you are left with a different creature entirely. The problem arises when domination and submission is fashioned into a vehicle for little more than a pleasure/pain-based odyssey. That is when it starts to feel like a hollow religion of service-oriented hedonism and prostitution.

Noah -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 4:20:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. I believe the acronym has expanded considerably in the pursuit of accommodating the mainstream palette. It is for this reason I have been avoiding identifying myself with many of the labels and community-oriented terms that are commonly associated with BDSM—not due to their literal meaning, but the sensual diversion they have come to popularly represent. Some literal terms or ideas I will defend boldly, but I do concede to the plasticity of many others. While I believe sexuality is often a core source of influence behind domination and submission, that is not to say it is always in its rawest, most obvious state—or even a single state. The psychology of sexuality is marbled vast and deep in humans. Take it completely out of the human equation and you are left with a different creature entirely. The problem arises when domination and submission is fashioned into a vehicle for little more than a pleasure/pain-based odyssey. That is when it starts to feel like a hollow religion of service-oriented hedonism and prostitution. Thanks for some ideas I find really worth thinking about, amayos. I think it is often helpful, when a conversation stalls or becomes enflamed, to stop and look at the way we are proceeding with the conversation. Sometimes the way we proceed ends up in the forefront and the putative subject matter almost gets lost. And sometimes we don't even notice when this has happened. Look at a sentence like "BDSM is about ..." It attempts to frame the matter in a very particular way. Is BDSM some monolithic entity which can be characterized in a single way? What do we point to when we use the term BDSM? I think we can use it to point to a very wide range of human behaviors across the globe and across the years. Yes we can point to types and kinds of behaviors also but even then we are in a sense pointing right through the types and kinds to individual acts by individual people and couples, etc. Millions of such acts, if not far higher numbers. Were each of these millions of acts, and patterns of acts, "about" one thing? A bare majority of them? Should they all have been about about one thing even in case, as it happened, they weren't? I'm really not sure what all an unqualified claim like: "BDSM is about ..." is trying to claim in the first place, when I take the proposition seriously enough to look at it closely. In addition to actions, with the term BDSM we can point to attitudes, preferences, and tastes, many of them running right at odds to one another in important ways--even as they manage to be workably subsumed under that one term. And let me point out that I mean workably subsumed under that one term for certain purposes. Whereas they remain very much in need of distinction from one another if our purposes are different in certain ways, that is if we want the treatment to be workable. BDSM is a term that can point to theories, including theories directly at odds with one another. The term can point to to a body of literature and art, very broadly defined. It can point to a set of practices, or another set of practices, or any number of other sets of practices. It can point to one or another matter of fashions or it can name a market in a business analysis. The one thing the term doesn't seem to be a useful pointer toward is ... one thing. A certain single thing which can be "about" one other thing. I'd love to see a nice discussion of the place and the role and the utility and the meanings and the dangers and the joys of power exchange in the context of WIITWD. I'd enjoy seeing alternative opinions stated as such, and explored as thoroughly as any two or more people might care to do. Furthermore, efforts to compare and contrast the relative standings of the sexual dynamic and the power exchange dynamic in BDSM strike me as efforts worth taking. Several respondents to this thread have taken steps in those directions and I thank each of them for their efforts. I just don't think having one person pop up like toast and announce to the whole world and Canada "what it is all about, once and for all," contributes much of anything. A bunch of insincere platitudes? I guess only the OP knows for sure. Part of the trouble, as it seems to me, arises from a certain platitude which is offerred here about as often as anywhere else, I guess. It is that platitude which states: "There are no stupid questions." It isn't that I think that platitude is without a germ of truth. Rather, I think it is possible to frame a question so poorly that it can end up a powerful agent in restricting or diminishing understanding, rather than contributing to understanding. I mean if you're doing your best to get an issue you care about on the table for discussion, good for you. If the very best you can do today is a question which tends to obfuscate rather than set the stage for clarification, well I'm not saying don't go ahead. Maybe someone will find a good corner of it to grab onto and move the discussion in some productive direction. What I'm coming out in favor of is conversations starters which don't, for instance, beg the question at issue, or much more generally blithely overlook important things which are right there before our eyes. Things like the fact that BDSM is not one single, monolithic entity in terms of it's meaning. BDSM is instantiated and reinstantiated over and over again between all sorts of people in all sorts of physical, psychological and emotional places. That much seem pretty plain as a matter of observeable natural history. Based on those sorts of observations I personally tend to expect that various people will find and make meaning in their BDSM activities differently than the guy next door sometimes. So little of the talk around here has to do with meanings. Now today someone (the OP) addresses that area and does so in terms seemingly intended to restrict or prohibit discussion or exploration rather than encourage and cultivate it. My hat is off to each of those who questioned the way the OP chose to frame the discussion. Even moreso toward those who took a step toward considering the meaning(s) of WIITWD with a more open mind and heart and perhaps a less jaundiced eye.

Kalira -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 5:16:15 PM)
quote: BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered Actually I disagree. BDSM is not about power and how it is surrendered. *In MY OWN OPINION,* BDSM is nothing more than an act that enhances a D/s or M/s relationship; just like sex can enhance it. It has nothing to do with power.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 5:20:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant In point of fact, BDSM IS about sex, at least the SM part is. Like it or not, sadism has been and is defined as sexual arousal derived from infliction of pain, be it physical or emotional or mental, on another. I have several dictionaries which give alternate definitions to the term 'sadism'. BDSM is 'not' about sex. It's an acronym. I don't know if you've ever had sex while being bound, but it's really not all that easy to fuck someone who's hog tied and just try adding a gag to the bondage and see how effective your blow jobs are. ::laughs:: If what you meant to say here was that bondage is not about sex...I went along with that in my post. quote: Discipline, in and of itself, does not require any sexual element at all. Again...I noted as much in my post above. quote: S/m - now there's a can of worms. One of the online dictionaries defines S/m as: "Sadism and masochism, in the original sense, describe psychiatric disorders characterized by feelings of sexual pleasure or gratification when inflicting suffering or having it inflicted upon the self, respectively." http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Sadism+and+masochism+as+medical+terms So, an argument can be made that if you're in to S/m, it's all about being nutso. ::laughs:: That was then, though.. and this is now. ;) I think a valid argument can be made that gratification need not be sexual in nature. I am gratified when I eat ice cream. I am gratified when I have endorphins rushing through my body. I am gratified by many things which have nothing to do with sex and I would bet dollars to donuts most others have similar gratifications which are not sexual in nature even though they may gain those gratifications through the application or applying of pain. One of Webster's Universal Encyclopedic Dictionary (circa 2004) definitions of sadism is: 2a: a delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty A delight in cruelty.. not a sexual delight in cruelty. A subtle difference in my mind, but a definite difference. Agreed...definition 2 has no mention of the delight being sexual in nature So, I can go along with you that those practicing sadism can indeed practice sadism without a sexual element involved. I will concede that AND further conced then that my statement that "if there is not a sexual element, it is not sadism" was a statement made in error. (see? dominants CAN admit that they've made a goof [:)]) But you will note that definition 1 (which is usually the most common usage), pulled from Merriam-Webster, states this: 1: a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by infliction of physical or mental pain on others. After next looking up masochism, I hope everyone will trust me when I say that masochism has the same type of definitions, only from the masochistic point of view. So again, I offer the same concessions. quote: Further it defines sadomasochism on page 1615 as: : the derivation of pleasure from the infliction of physical or mental pain on either others or on oneself You'll note, that says nothing about sexual pleasure, just pleasure. Who is to say that all pleasure from pain is sexual? I enjoy needle play. I get a great deal of pleasure from the creation of beautiful spirals and designs. Sticking needles in someone is painful to them, but the pleasure I get is from what I view as something lovely, not from something sexual. I gain artisitic pleasure, not sexual pleasure. Words are updated and modified as their usage expands. Most BDSM jargon which you can find in dictionary's doesn't take into account the way that they are used in this, particular, alternative lifestyle. Hopefully, one day, they will, but until they do, I will have to use the dictionary definitions as they are .. an outline of what is possible.. then color them in with explanation if I want to be truly understood. Just something to ponder. Celeste edit to correct typo And after pondering it and doing some searching, I have conceded the point (see above) that sadomasochism is not always about sex. That being said and armed with these newer definitions, I still disagree with the general statement that BDSM is not about sex. For those who choose to use definition 2 and not definition 1, yes I guess it will not be about sex. For others, myself included, it is a mix of the two. For some, it IS all about sex as they prefer to stick to "definition 1" only. And I still feel that it should be made clear to the submissive by the dominant, and by the dominant to the submissive, just which area of BDSM...or more specifically, for some...they fall into; 1, 2, or a mix (would that be 3? ~g~)

MisPandora -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 5:28:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. OK, but what about the folks for whom BDSM is all about sex? Are you saying your BDSM is better or more right than theirs?

BitaTruble -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 5:36:03 PM)
quote: And after pondering it and doing some searching, I have conceded the point (see above) that sadomasochism is not always about sex. And I will concede the point that it is 'sometimes' about sex. [;)] Is this a first? A meeting of the minds? Compromise? It can't be! There's only one thing left to do.. What's the difference between a submissive and a slave? ::laughs, ducks and runs:: [sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif] Celeste

RedSavageSlave -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 6:04:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold quote: ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave It doesnt HAVE to be any particular one thing for everyone and I simply cannot understand why there is this driving need to put people in small boxes and say "if you dont fit in this box, then you cannot be one of us". Did I do that? Did I say that? Perhaps you would be willing to clarify that for Me? Not exactly sure why it said was replying to your post..it was actually aimed to the OP.. :)

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 6:25:03 PM)
Ah...It did say in response to GoddessDustyGold, and there was another post in between. Since I had mentioned, in My post, that there is a good place for labels at times and not being PC, I did think you were addressing Me. Thanks for clarifying. Edited to add: Love your tag lines!

sophia37 -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 6:28:05 PM)
its about the intellect. And thats why I find it of interest.

slavejali -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 6:30:47 PM)
quote: What's the difference between a submissive and a slave? ::laughs, ducks and runs:: slaps Celeste [;)]

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 6:41:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover BDSM is about whatever you want to make of it. For some it's about sex. For some it's about honor and respect. For some it's about giving or receiving pain. For some it's about exerting control or being controlled. For some it's about role playing and fantasy fulfillment. I could go on ad nauseum. BDSM means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. John And for some it is about all of these.......Tempting

CandleInTheWind -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 6:52:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella G'morning all: I will probably get lots of flames for this this post, but what the hey, I like swimming upstream. Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. Rant over, all vented. Have at it kiddies! Stay safe, place nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella Bella....I am in the minority I realize....for me WIIWD or at least what it is that I do is not about sex...it is abotu an intense emotional tie...an intense trust that i can place in somone! Perhaps it is something that i am lacking from time gone by, I have had more than one person try to diagnose my issues...why am I a Daddy's girl? Probably becasue my most rewrding relationship in my entire life was that between myself and my father. But anyhow my humble little opinion that SEX and D/s have not a whole lot to do with each other...the BDSM are the tools that are used to develope the D/S relationship. and so that is the opinion of this little one have a great day oh and drive carefully little red

LordODiscipline -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 7:00:28 PM)
*Well -* *Besides beibng the kind of of condescending platitude encased absolute that is expected amongst some...* *I say it IS about sex -* *It IS about power over another -* *and* *It IS about a lot of other things....* *I also believe you need to get laid (must be the missing element in your BDSM) [;)]* ~J quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella G'morning all: I will probably get lots of flames for this this post, but what the hey, I like swimming upstream. Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. Rant over, all vented. Have at it kiddies! Stay safe, place nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

mnottertail -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 7:08:52 PM)
This is degradation pure and simple, how can anybody here think that this is all about sex? I want to get my cock sucked.....alot, and would be happy to find any woman who does not consider that a chore. If anyone here, can't see that it is in my mind, then it ain't in your mind, so I fundamentally agree it is not about sex and think the OP, is right on. I get dog-licking peanut butter head, and I exchange my fluid for the power of feeling like a God. Actually, when you listen to Frank Zappa or Prince backwards, it's all about the total power exchange. The most powerful man in the universe, MasterDisaster

marieToo -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 10:17:57 PM)
General Reply to OP topic: I kinda happen to think that most human beings are basically sexually-driven creatures, no matter bdsm or whatever. I don't think we realize sometimes just how sexual we really are. Sexuality, to me, isn't necessarily the act of having sex. Its a behavior, a mindset, a motivator, and yes, a tool that we use. We flirt, we charm, we tease, we stimulate, we seduce, our way through life, through job interviews, dinners out with friends, an altercation with a traffic cop, a disagreement with a lover, a price negotiation with a contractor, the cashier at the grocery store, the neighbor we sip coffee with, And we allow others to use that same power on us, and we mostly eat it up. I mean...male/male interactions, male/female interactions, female/female interactions. We charm one another. That, to me, is sexuality, though maybe in it's least intense form, but sexuality nonetheless. Bdsm can be about power and surrender, but aren't power and surrender some of the most highly charged sexual emotions? I think we tend to think that the meaning of "sexual" is defined by fucking. For me its defined by emotions; and what is more emotional than bdsm and all its varying aspects? Ds Ms and all those other friggin letters are sexual, but that doesn't mean you have to be having sex with one you are in submission to, or the one you are dominating. Sexuality, to me, has everything to do with all sorts of emotions, and little to do with the actual physical act of fucking. Therefore, I do believe that most aspects of the acronyms do lead back to sexuality. Or maybe Im just one of those freaks who finds sexuality in a sunrise.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 10:30:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali quote: What's the difference between a submissive and a slave? ::laughs, ducks and runs:: slaps Celeste [;)] LOL... I still wana know why all subs are over waight!!! Magik's slave

emdoub -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 10:51:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali quote: What's the difference between a submissive and a slave? ::laughs, ducks and runs:: slaps Celeste [;)] Personally, I rarely reward such behavior.... [;)] Midnight Writer

BitaTruble -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:03:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: emdoub quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali quote: What's the difference between a submissive and a slave? ::laughs, ducks and runs:: slaps Celeste [;)] Personally, I rarely reward such behavior.... [;)] Midnight Writer Yeah, that's the difference between having a MasterCard and a movie stub from The Secretary. She's just doesn't know any better. [8D] ::contemplates thanking jali and asking for another.. decides against it so as not to further highjack the thread:: Celeste

emdoub -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:28:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella G'morning all: I will probably get lots of flames for this this post, but what the hey, I like swimming upstream. Well, I haven't seen any flames, and won't be lighting up a flame-o-matic myself - unless you consider disagreement to be flaming. quote: Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. Whose BDSM are you defining here? I know folks who rarely mix their flavor of BDSM with sex, and others who consider BDSM without sex pointless - and they're all right. Everyone gets to do it their own damn way - even you. BDSM is a portmanteau term, a combination of the acronyms B&D, D/S, and S&M - Bondage and Discipline, Domination/Submission, and Sadism & Masochism, respectively. Originally, it was intended to cover the gamut of everything related to any of those interests. If it's not about sex for you, fine - but you don't get to define my interests any more than I get to define yours. It's not always about sex for me, either - hell, sometimes, intercourse in a D/S scene isn't about anyone having an orgasm - it's about me taking something that I insisted that they offer, and not about me (or them) getting those particular rocks off. Sometimes, though, it's about me taking sexual gratification, whether it's what they wanted or not. Then again, I keep hearing that rape isn't ever about sex, either - it's always about power. Dunno why it's always used in conjunction with a sexual act if it's never about sex - but that's what I hear. quote: People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. Wonderful! I've got a buck here - at the price you quote, that'd be 120 of 'em. How 'bout I take a mere 60, and you keep the profit. 60 should keep me busy for a while... quote: This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. Rant over, all vented. Have at it kiddies! Um... any form of submission accepted by me will be entirely about the desires of Yours Truly. While I do usually, as policy, make sure that any playtoy I take submission from is getting a reason to come back tomorrow, getting my own reasons for a second session does take precedence. Sometimes it's about sex, sometimes it's about making them do something they hate, just because I can, and sometimes it's about inflicting pain - it all depends on my mood. If this sounds like insincere platitudes to you , fine - that just demonstrates that you don't know me. Suit yourself - I suit myself, and expect everyone else to work towards that, as well. quote: Stay safe, place nice, & share your toys w/ others... Hardly ever, on all three counts. I settle for staying reasonably safe, playing honorably, and taking good care of my toys. Thanks anywho. Midnight Writer

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/18/2006 1:02:16 AM)
I can’t think in terms of scientific theories, psychological principles and logic progressions without also taking into account the mystifying, artistic beauty of the person. I’m human and my thoughts are controlled by what I think is desirable, not calculations. Sex, BDSM, D/s or M/s it all depends on how the kaleidoscope is turned to create the beautiful picture with mixed elements. A complex and beautiful person defies theories. You can’t turn that kaleidoscope a certain way and create the same picture again no matter how hard you try. When I find this complex and beautiful person I consider everything about her, try to understand what it is she needs from the combination of strong leadership, a reassuring comment, a friend, poetic phrases, an intense whipping or the many other things that can’t be described. I can’t make a picture if I only have one set of rocks in the kaleidoscope.

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