Ranting on the degradation of BDSM....

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GddssBella -> Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 9:04:23 AM)
G'morning all: I will probably get lots of flames for this this post, but what the hey, I like swimming upstream. Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. Rant over, all vented. Have at it kiddies! Stay safe, place nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

meatcleaver -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 9:20:22 AM)
I care about as much for D/s as I do for screwing farmer Gile's tattered sheep. The reason being the leash has two ends and the dom is fastened to it every bit as much as the sub. To paraphrase Foucault, the jailor is as much a prisoner as the jailed. Without the sex, there is no incentive to even go there, with the sex, it is still hard work. Since 'consensual' is the key word, it is all fantasy anyway. The only real part is the physical, the bondage, the pain and sex etc.

toservez -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 9:29:18 AM)
I think many people would agree with your assumption but to me it is way overly simplisitic in both theory and reality to most. As a submissive it is very important to me to use your own words "psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s" I could not agree more. BUT this requires a physical manifestation of this power exchange and the most often for many people the most powerful mentally and physically converge in sexual situations. I certainly want to feel this power in a sexual situation. For most people the sex drive is one of their if not their most powerful drives in them. To not have this be a part of the power exchange and just a "merely a pleasant after effect" is not something I would care for in an owner. Are there people in this life that only care about the sex stuff, sure, there is nothing wrong with them if they and the other person knows this. Are their people who do not feel the sexual part of this sure and that is fine as long as they and the other person knows. I think for most of us it falls somewhere in between. I know I am a 24/7 slave and to tell me that the sex part is an after effect and not really part of the D/s part is just wrong. These are relationships, and one of the things all realtionships, including these, requires is that BOTH people get their needs filled. When it comes to sex everyone has needs and finding the right match in this area is often over looked in all relationships and should not be. Is it easy to make a gross generalization that too many people only care about sex, especially males, yes, but from your comments I wonder if you have come in contact with many serious submissives and communication has broken down because you were interested in making sure your needs were met and if their's were not then they were losers.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 9:31:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella BDSM is NOT about sex. It is for me sometimes. It is for a lot of people all the time. And it isn't for some people at any time. quote: It's about power. Actually for me bdsm is about play and intense experiences. M/s for me is about authority. quote: The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. Are you talking bdsm or ds? Or do you combine them? I use them as two distinct concepts. quote: People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. Rant over, all vented. Have at it kiddies! Are you ranting over the lack of sincerity or the prevalance of sexual fun?

cloudboy -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 10:15:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella \People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. Yes, but two people who share a sexual-social connection are not. I don't think such people would categorize their relations as "services" either. quote: Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. Then the genders and sexual orientation of the partners is irrelevant. Under your description, BDSM is akin to an employer-employee relationship, wherein the relationship is about "the work" and not the innate personal traits. Lemme just say, I don't think so. BDSM is all about the sex, as inorgasmic as it might appear. Its about who you want to touch, control, hurt, deny, etc. The "who you want" component just oozes sexuality.

LadyHugs -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 10:35:32 AM)
Dear GddssBella, Ladies and Gentlemen; In my mind's eyes I see, there are many things to complain about in today's/present BDSM but, I also have to mention that I see from the mind's eyes of how it use to be in the 1970's-1980's and the changes both good and bad that have been from my beginning to my present. I can only assume how things will become, based on local trends. And even these trends, are often local/regional and not national, international and or global. People's sexual reference points are also important, as I do believe those who are youthful, tend to be more sexually driven--but, it also is nature's drive to populate--making little doms and submissives, to replace the dying and or dead. But, the physical sex gets the most attention out of individuals. Sometimes the physical sex gets out of hand and turns people away from that, when its 'too much in your face;' per se. But, in M/s, D/s, BDSM, S&M, Bondage--there are other forms of 'sex' without physical breeding/mating sex. There is the spiritual sex, the mental sex, which I will add--is often more powerful than physical sex, the emotional sex and how it blends in with the whole 'sex' recipe. In my mind's eyes--in most general of terms, too much focus on one form of sex, the physical sex and denial of the other forms of sex, is what frustrates a good many individuals. It is hard to put into words for some and or needs to be experienced, to appreciate the meanings behind spiritual, mental, emotional and sense of awareness that these things are sex and not limited to the physical sex acts. Perhaps that might be the source of frustration, when those who are not aware, think physical sex is--the end all. Yet, more seasoned practitioners know it is just part of the recipe that transends what might be known about sex. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 10:55:06 AM)
I will disagree that BDSM is not about sex. It actually is. D/s or M/s is not. The dynamic might feed a sexual tension and charge the relationship with something very personal and different, but it is not sexual in and of itself. And this is where so much confusion comes in. Too many people are not aware that BDSM refers to the specific scene activities and D/s or M/s refers to the lifestyle dynamic of which those BDSM activites may be a part. For Me? I would like to have both, and the M/s is the much larger part of the equation, since I can get the BDSM any old time I want it. For those who are strictly interested in a vanilla lifestyle as accepted by society (equal relationship with compromise and "Honey, I 'm home, but not feeling particulary submissive tonight") and then BDSM activites behind the closed bedroom door ("Honey, I'll get the rope, you grab the panties!"), does not a D/s or M/s relationship make. Call it what you will, but there is a reason for language and labels, and if that language and those labels don't impart the beginnings of a common understanding regarding what the ultimate goals of each party are, then we will continue to work at cross purposes and waste time. D/s or M/s is about power and power exchange or the transfer of complete authority in all areas to a Dominant by a submissive or slave. Hence, be careful what you wish for and make sure you know and trust your Dominant. BDSM is the type of play (often very sexual in nature) that is usually a natural part of that type of relationship. There can be a D/s or M/s relationship without any BDSM activities. There can be BDSM without any submission except as "bottoming" or "topping" for that brief period of time. Definitions and labels. Many hate 'em, but you really gotta love 'em. And there I go, not being PC again!

vield -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:07:54 AM)
Yes Lady Hugs, given the way things were in the 1970's and earlier, some things have gone way down hill. The safety of indulging oneself or one's partners in the wildest of sexual fun was acceptable, knowing that pregnancy could be safely avoided and the known STD's were thought harmless or easily fixed with antibiotics. Those were some VERY hot times. That safety proved to be an illusion, and HIV and various forms of hepatitis became widespread and deadly. The focus of the BD/SM scene remained sexual for many people, although the professional BD/SM providers moved away from that for health and legal reasons. The debate of whether or not BD/SM is sexual, should be sexual, can be sexual, or ought not to include sexuality has always been around, but had little force until the mid to late 80's in my area. Like everything else, one seeks what one needs, and tries to connect with others with compatible unterests. It is important to open honest communications so we can find partners who share the ideas we wish to explore. Consensuality should be mutual so we all only go to actions we knowingly consent to. A good negotiation I feel is the best way to work this out. Since the mid 1990's the information available on line, in books and magazines, and the development of social, play and discussion groups around the world has enabled the BD/SM scene to open to many people of very diverse interests. Prior to this the only group resources were swing groups, and their focus of course was quite sexual. vield

RedSavageSlave -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:15:51 AM)
it is what it is and thats all that it is... did that make sense?? LOL D/s M/s is about the power exchange dynamic..it affects the mental and emotional responses of one human to another (it could also apply to animals I suppose but I have no knowledge of that) BDSM is about the physical and mental stimulation of the body and senses for the goal of the parties involved. That goal could be sex, pain, comfort, etc. as determined by the involved parties. It doesnt HAVE to be any particular one thing for everyone and I simply cannot understand why there is this driving need to put people in small boxes and say "if you dont fit in this box, then you cannot be one of us". This is a very general overview of what I feel to be true. The details could (and I am sure WILL) vary from one individual to the next.

GrizzlyBear -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:25:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. Who put you in charge of what BDSM is or is not, for everyone else? Feel free to say that it is not about sex FOR YOU. Do not try to tell me whether it should be about sex, or not. I am quite capable of making up my own mind. Let's get THAT straight.

Mikal -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:31:56 AM)
quote: GrizzlyBear: Let's get THAT straight What? STRAIGHT's???? On this site [sm=hair.gif]???? GET 'EM..... [sm=trident.gif].... they must be assimilated...

LotusSong -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:43:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I care about as much for D/s as I do for screwing farmer Gile's tattered sheep. So YOU were the one!!! That sheep STILL has a nervous twitch on the left side of her face.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 11:55:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Are you ranting over the lack of sincerity or the prevalance of sexual fun? Now that made me laugh.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 12:17:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella G'morning all: I will probably get lots of flames for this this post, but what the hey, I like swimming upstream. Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. In point of fact, BDSM IS about sex, at least the SM part is. Like it or not, sadism has been and is defined as sexual arousal derived from infliction of pain, be it physical or emotional or mental, on another. Now, for some in WIITWD, it has come to mean inflicting other things besides pain but the intent is still sexual arousal. If you use the means to practice sadism for anything other than sexual arousal, it may well be about power but it no longer fits the definition of sadism then, even the broader one enjoyed in WIITWD. Masochism has been and is defined as sexual arousal derived from the reception of pain, be it physical or emotional or mental, from another. Again, for some in WIITWD, it has come to mean receiving things other than pain but the intent is still sexual arousal. If your reception of these things...pain, sensation, etc....is for any other reason than sexual arousal, then it no longer fits the definition of masochism, even the broader one encompassed by WIITWD. Now, the bondage and the discipline...they may well have sexual elements or they may be more about the power but in those cases, I would venture to say it depends on the context. Now...D/s? D/s...in MOO and from what I've read, many others opinions also...is MUCH more about power. That statement I can agree with. But not the BDSM. While BDSM is often an expression of the power within the D/s relationship, if the sexual arousal is not an intent for one party or the other, then by the dictionary definition and the legal definition, it is not sadism/masochism you are engaged in. quote: People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. Rant over, all vented. Have at it kiddies! Here is an area where I am pretty sure I am in disagreement with you. Maybe I should put my flame suit on but here goes. I've heard dominants, mainly female dominants, state something along the lines of what you've stated above. It is a way of putting into the submissive's head that their sexual desires and needs are not important and that consideration of them or wanting/expecting them to be fulfilled is somehow a lesser form of submission. Sorry...don't agree unless you are talking a purely D/s relationship with no BDSM or...if BDSM elements are involved, then a statement by the dominant that they use BDSM elements but not for the purpose of sadism/masochism. And if that is what happens...why do we see so many posts from male submissives asking if it is wrong to want some sort of sexual release with their Mistress or some recognition of their sexual needs? I happen to think a D/s relationship that is going to incorporate BDSM is a recognition of the fact that there is a desire on the part of the dominant AND the submissive for sexual fulfillment. I happen to believe that a submissive has every right to hold onto their sexual desires and find someone who recognizes his/her right to have them and to have them fulfilled and not purely at the whim of the dominant. [:D] Bella

slavejali -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 12:19:02 PM)
Fast Reply: Sometimes I say its about sex and other times I say its not, depends on where I am coming from on any particular day. I do not have casual sexual partners, Ive had 4 relationships in my life and each one of them has been long term. Two of those relationships were not BDSM related, out of those two, one of them was non sexual, yet in both I was the submissive partner. So in those scenarios, you could say that D/s (or power exchange as you put it) does not even have to be indicitive of a BDSM relationship. Of my two BDSM relationships, where I was/am "slave" there was/is sex involved, so its very much part of the relationship and an underlaying theme in the relationship. So oftentimes I will say, BDSM is about sex. I would never go out to the shed and just bang my thumb with a hammer to get some kind of sensation, yet intense play for me within a BDSM M/s relationship does provoke some intense sexual feelings and interplay. That being so, I'm totally ok with saying BDSM is about sex, yet underneath it all, it is all just about "relationship itself", and the powerful dynamics that can be had with two people consciously embrace the essence of domination and submission, for me that plays out in a Master/slave relationship. Did I agree or disagree with you? Probably both...and its going to be different for each individual involved.

Rover -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 12:35:56 PM)
BDSM is about whatever you want to make of it. For some it's about sex. For some it's about honor and respect. For some it's about giving or receiving pain. For some it's about exerting control or being controlled. For some it's about role playing and fantasy fulfillment. I could go on ad nauseum. BDSM means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. John

BitaTruble -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 1:17:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant In point of fact, BDSM IS about sex, at least the SM part is. Like it or not, sadism has been and is defined as sexual arousal derived from infliction of pain, be it physical or emotional or mental, on another. I have several dictionaries which give alternate definitions to the term 'sadism'. BDSM is 'not' about sex. It's an acronym. I don't know if you've ever had sex while being bound, but it's really not all that easy to fuck someone who's hog tied and just try adding a gag to the bondage and see how effective your blow jobs are. ::laughs:: Discipline, in and of itself, does not require any sexual element at all. S/m - now there's a can of worms. One of the online dictionaries defines S/m as: "Sadism and masochism, in the original sense, describe psychiatric disorders characterized by feelings of sexual pleasure or gratification when inflicting suffering or having it inflicted upon the self, respectively." http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Sadism+and+masochism+as+medical+terms So, an argument can be made that if you're in to S/m, it's all about being nutso. ::laughs:: That was then, though.. and this is now. ;) I think a valid argument can be made that gratification need not be sexual in nature. I am gratified when I eat ice cream. I am gratified when I have endorphins rushing through my body. I am gratified by many things which have nothing to do with sex and I would bet dollars to donuts most others have similar gratifications which are not sexual in nature even though they may gain those gratifications through the application or applying of pain. One of Webster's Universal Encyclopedic Dictionary (circa 2004) definitions of sadism is: 2a: a delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty A delight in cruelty.. not a sexual delight in cruelty. A subtle difference in my mind, but a definite difference. Further it defines sadomasochism on page 1615 as: : the derivation of pleasure from the infliction of physical or mental pain on either others or on oneself You'll note, that says nothing about sexual pleasure, just pleasure. Who is to say that all pleasure from pain is sexual? I enjoy needle play. I get a great deal of pleasure from the creation of beautiful spirals and designs. Sticking needles in someone is painful to them, but the pleasure I get is from what I view as something lovely, not from something sexual. I gain artisitic pleasure, not sexual pleasure. Words are updated and modified as their usage expands. Most BDSM jargon which you can find in dictionary's doesn't take into account the way that they are used in this, particular, alternative lifestyle. Hopefully, one day, they will, but until they do, I will have to use the dictionary definitions as they are .. an outline of what is possible.. then color them in with explanation if I want to be truly understood. Just something to ponder. Celeste edit to correct typo

slavemaia -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 1:46:16 PM)
quote: I would never go out to the shed and just bang my thumb with a hammer to get some kind of sensation ouch - ouch - ouch - me neither. But now, jali, don't be giving these Doms/Masters crazy ideas - lol

deltadawn -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 1:50:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GddssBella G'morning all: I will probably get lots of flames for this this post, but what the hey, I like swimming upstream. Let's get something straight. BDSM is NOT about sex. It's about power. How it is surrendered. How it is applied to gain control over another person. The psychological stimulation that power exchange evokes is the key element to D/s. Sexual stimulation is merely a pleasant after effect. People offering sexual services are a dime a dozen. This form of submission has much less to do with the desires of the dominant/top and is merely indicative of the sub/slave/bottom looking for sexual gratification. Lip service is cheap. You can spew whatever platitudes you like, but a lack of sincerity will shine through. Rant over, all vented. Have at it kiddies! Stay safe, place nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella I have to disagree. BDSM is the play. Sometimes sexual, sometimes not, but the play. D/s, M/s has the power element. I can be tied up and whipped by many, but I submit only to my Master. dawn

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Ranting on the degradation of BDSM.... (11/17/2006 3:07:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave It doesnt HAVE to be any particular one thing for everyone and I simply cannot understand why there is this driving need to put people in small boxes and say "if you dont fit in this box, then you cannot be one of us". Did I do that? Did I say that? Perhaps you would be willing to clarify that for Me?

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