The Return of the Sandinista?

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Level -> The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 5:07:07 PM)
Ortega seen winning Nicaragua election By TRACI CARL, Associated Press WriterMon Nov 6, 3:52 PM ET Daniel Ortega, the revolutionary Marxist who battled a U.S.-backed Contra insurgency in the 1980s, was closing in on Nicaragua's presidency, appearing Monday to have defeated four opponents with promises that he was a changed man. Electoral officials had yet to release final results from Sunday's vote, but preliminary results and two of the country's top electoral watchdog groups all gave Ortega about 40 percent of the vote. That was more than enough to avoid a runoff against Harvard-educated banker Eduardo Montealegre, who trailed by at least seven percentage points. Ortega's rivals refused to recognize his victory, saying they would wait until all the votes had been counted. The United States, which has threatened to pull aid from an Ortega government, also said it was too soon to declare the Sandinista leader a winner. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061106/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/nicaragua_elections

philosophy -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 7:04:15 PM)
..isn't it time the USA stopped trying to change the democratically elected Nicaraguan government? Give aid if they want to or not......but stop making aid dependent on an electorate doing what the USA wants.........and wouldn't this be a good thing or not?

Zensee -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 7:11:57 PM)
There are over four million desperately poor people in that country, largely thanks to US interference. Go democracy. USA - please stop helping the rest of us run our countries.

mnottertail -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 7:12:43 PM)
C'mon buddy-- you talk like a man with a paper ass, we bring enlightenment to the world, that's why we're. forcing the puppet government of Iraq to off Sadass, we don't want him coming back to power and putting a lid on that powderkeg, why then we would have to fight the grandmother of all battles over there once he came back to power......some of these fuckin' guys just don't get it.................... LOL.............. Phil...........exactly what I am thinking.......... He reformed or didn't but he had a groundswell of support the first time around, and his only trouble was that the US took a 'benign' interest over there................... We got all we can handle to deal with our own horseshit political landscape, without exporting our special brand of woe to the unelightened globe............

MasterKalif -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 9:24:24 PM)
independent of US interference or not.....the Sandinista leader, Daniel Ortega was a marxist dictator who killed thousands, and gained power through force in 1979....true before him was a right wing dictatorship that was a true US puppet, but at least he was pretty harmless, although extremely corrupt....don't bite the bullet that to be against US policy you must support a murderous thug like Ortega. I hope his opponent wins so that Nicaragua can finally pull itself out of that deep hole it is in.

Sinergy -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 9:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif independent of US interference or not.....the Sandinista leader, Daniel Ortega was a marxist dictator who killed thousands, and gained power through force in 1979....true before him was a right wing dictatorship that was a true US puppet, but at least he was pretty harmless, although extremely corrupt....don't bite the bullet that to be against US policy you must support a murderous thug like Ortega. I hope his opponent wins so that Nicaragua can finally pull itself out of that deep hole it is in. Hrm, we support the right wing dictactorship US puppet, but are opposed to the democratically elected alleged former leader of the Sandinista. I love it when Americans state that we support Democracy worldwide. So it is ok for Monkeyboy to slaughter thousands and thousands of citizens of foreign nations, but when Ortega (allegedly) slaughters thousands we have to get up in arms about him? Go read "American Theocracy," it is a wonderful book and I finished the lovely part of the book talking about all the economies the United States has destroyed in their quest to control the world oil markets. Venezuala is one of those, and the United States is currently petrified at the idea that they might require the United States to purchase oil from them using EuroDollars. Oddly enough, Saddam Hussein was talking about doing the same thing a couple of years before he was invaded. The fun part of the book is over, and now I am at the part of the book which talks about the rise of Pentecostal Fundamentalism in this country. I am becoming scared. Sinergy

MasterKalif -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 9:38:32 PM)
Sinergy, you make an excellent point in terms of the bias of US foreign policy....and like any superpower, it looks after its own selfish interest (well every country does this), but it should be more uniform in terms of not dealing with any of those thugs. I like to think that the US was afraid of the Soviets somehow gaining the upper hand with a Sandinista communist government (which they did have).....but now that Nicaragua is free of foreign interference and the guerrillas on the right and left have been mostly disbanded, the US should stay out of it....but in my opinion, Daniel Ortega should not be allowed to run for president of a supposed free society...Nicaragua should learn from its own mistakes and barr him from running or obtaining political office based on his past record as a tyrant and as a human rights abuser. Unfortunately politics gets in the way.

Sinergy -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 9:46:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif Sinergy, you make an excellent point in terms of the bias of US foreign policy....and like any superpower, it looks after its own selfish interest (well every country does this), but it should be more uniform in terms of not dealing with any of those thugs. I like to think that the US was afraid of the Soviets somehow gaining the upper hand with a Sandinista communist government (which they did have).....but now that Nicaragua is free of foreign interference and the guerrillas on the right and left have been mostly disbanded, the US should stay out of it....but in my opinion, Daniel Ortega should not be allowed to run for president of a supposed free society...Nicaragua should learn from its own mistakes and barr him from running or obtaining political office based on his past record as a tyrant and as a human rights abuser. Unfortunately politics gets in the way. I doubt that Nicaragua was a truly communist country, although, like Vietnam, they like to say they are. If he was so bad, how is he getting elected to run the country? I imagine there are any number of countries on the planet that really did not want Monkeyboy to be elected King of the United States. But I imagine most American's would say it is none of their effing business what cretin is put into office by Dumbfuckistan. I would prefer the US fix the problems within the United States and let other countries work out their own issues. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

juliaoceania -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 10:56:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif independent of US interference or not.....the Sandinista leader, Daniel Ortega was a marxist dictator who killed thousands, and gained power through force in 1979....true before him was a right wing dictatorship that was a true US puppet, but at least he was pretty harmless, although extremely corrupt....don't bite the bullet that to be against US policy you must support a murderous thug like Ortega. I hope his opponent wins so that Nicaragua can finally pull itself out of that deep hole it is in. So my question kinda goes like this, people that die by the 1000s for a Marxist to come to power died at the hands of a ruthless dictator, but if they die for a USA puppet dictator they died for "freedom"... I thought dead is just dead

MasterKalif -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 11:05:01 PM)
juliaoceania....no that is not what I am saying....both are deaths as you state, and both are wrong....but the former right wing dictator (US puppet) was killed in exile in 1983 (if I am not mistaken), but the other evil is out there pretending he cares about democracy....none of them are good. What the US wants does not equal "freedom" as the Iraq fiasco has proven so fatally.

popeye1250 -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 11:11:16 PM)
Let them do whatever they like in that country. I just don't like the "foreign aid" part. Is it ever going to end? And who really cares if Nicaragua goes "communist." Let China give them money. Wait, China's going capitalist. Any other communist countries out there that want to give them money?

juliaoceania -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 11:20:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif juliaoceania....no that is not what I am saying....both are deaths as you state, and both are wrong....but the former right wing dictator (US puppet) was killed in exile in 1983 (if I am not mistaken), but the other evil is out there pretending he cares about democracy....none of them are good. What the US wants does not equal "freedom" as the Iraq fiasco has proven so fatally. I think that people need to sacrifice for their own freedom and we have stood in the way of that process many times in South America alone. You cannot give people freedom, and each generation that has it must value it, and if free people let down their vigilence concerning their own freedom wars like Iraq happen and laws that restrict freedom happen. It is hard to give to others what you do not possess... we have to address our own backyard

MasterKalif -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/6/2006 11:26:23 PM)
juliaoceania, I agree, the US should worry first and foremost about issues that directly affect the US...the rest is "extra" icing on top of the cake....I think you misunderstand me a bit, I do not want the US to get involved at all in Nicaragua or any Latin American country for that matter....they have messed up pretty good over the years, and nothing has changed....my point is that I hope Nicaragua learns its own lessons, and understands that Mr. Ortega is not a viable option for development, and has a bad past....it easy to villify the "puppets", but people also forget that those who fought the puppets are little better or sometimes worse. [8\|]

Rumtiger -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/7/2006 12:58:06 AM)
To be honost, being of Nicaraguence heritage, I dont really know how to feel about it, all i got to go on is my grandma's stories of how life was like back then, and the difference between times.

meatcleaver -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/7/2006 1:33:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif independent of US interference or not.....the Sandinista leader, Daniel Ortega was a marxist dictator who killed thousands, and gained power through force in 1979....true before him was a right wing dictatorship that was a true US puppet, but at least he was pretty harmless, although extremely corrupt....don't bite the bullet that to be against US policy you must support a murderous thug like Ortega. I hope his opponent wins so that Nicaragua can finally pull itself out of that deep hole it is in. The US governement gained power by force. Does that make it illigitimate?

MasterKalif -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/7/2006 2:13:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The US governement gained power by force. Does that make it illigitimate? could you please elaborate more? as far as I am concerned, as much as I dislike Bush or his administration, I cannot conceive that they gained power "by force"....I don't think I understand....maybe you are referring to the US revolution? That was an independence movement, which is very different, and George Washington did not set himself up as president for life, as far as I can remember, even if several people proposed that he became a monarch instead....

meatcleaver -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/7/2006 2:27:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The US governement gained power by force. Does that make it illigitimate? could you please elaborate more? as far as I am concerned, as much as I dislike Bush or his administration, I cannot conceive that they gained power "by force"....I don't think I understand....maybe you are referring to the US revolution? That was an independence movement, which is very different, and George Washington did not set himself up as president for life, as far as I can remember, even if several people proposed that he became a monarch instead.... The point being the US should allow other countries to choose their own governments. The Sandinistas overthrew a corrupt US puppet government. If the government wasn't corrupt and a puppet, there wouldn't have been a revolutionary movement. The same goes for Cuba. The same goes for Iran. The US riles against these governments but it is instrumental in bringing about the conditions of revolution and forgets, according to itself, it was a revolutionary government once. The irony being, the government of the American colonies wasn't corrupt by standards of the time and even by most standards today. It was about independence and the right to self determination so why can't they allow other countries that privelege?

thompsonx -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/7/2006 4:25:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif juliaoceania, I agree, the US should worry first and foremost about issues that directly affect the US...the rest is "extra" icing on top of the cake....I think you misunderstand me a bit, I do not want the US to get involved at all in Nicaragua or any Latin American country for that matter....they have messed up pretty good over the years, and nothing has changed....my point is that I hope Nicaragua learns its own lessons, and understands that Mr. Ortega is not a viable option for development, and has a bad past....it easy to villify the "puppets", but people also forget that those who fought the puppets are little better or sometimes worse. [8\|] MasterKalif: Are you suggesting that the Nicaraguan people are too stupid to choose, in a democratic fashion, who shall govern their country? You seem not to be aware of the sort of person Anastasio Samoza was...perhaps a little research would be in order ...isn't this the man who murdered his opponants when he invited them to a peace conference. thompson

UtopianRanger -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/7/2006 4:38:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Let them do whatever they like in that country. I just don't like the "foreign aid" part. Is it ever going to end? And who really cares if Nicaragua goes "communist." Let China give them money. Wait, China's going capitalist. Any other communist countries out there that want to give them money? I see it in no other way than another little guy rising up. Both Central and South America are trending left. The ass-kicking and bad press with regard to Iraq will hopefully buy these little countries some time. - R

MasterKalif -> RE: The Return of the Sandinista? (11/7/2006 9:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx MasterKalif: Are you suggesting that the Nicaraguan people are too stupid to choose, in a democratic fashion, who shall govern their country? You seem not to be aware of the sort of person Anastasio Samoza was...perhaps a little research would be in order ...isn't this the man who murdered his opponants when he invited them to a peace conference. thompson thompson, not at all....what I am saying is that the masses in any one country that lacks education and where most of the people are to young to remember, may not have all the information needed at election time. I am not supporting Somoza, I m just saying that Daniel Ortega is a murderous thug just as well, and not a "democratic" leader per se....overthrowing a dictatorship does not make the new leader a democrat automatically...case in point would be Castro after overthrowing Batista. I have read up on Somoza's murderous ways and his extreme nepotism and corruption, no need to re-read it....but perhaps you should brush up a bit on Mr. Ortega's past as well as his short stint in government from 1985-1990? My point is simple, both are bad, I am criticizing Ortega because Batista is not running in that presidential election (he is dead).

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