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RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 8:26:07 AM   
dvart


Posts: 110
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Submissive is not just the action, it is a way of being

my point in a nutshell !

< Message edited by dvart -- 10/31/2006 8:29:26 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 8:31:27 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dvart
To put it more clearly: if someone just has a kink to be tied up AND wants control the time,place and method where this will be done AND shows no signs whatsoever of wanting to submit, then is such a person really a submissive ?


It's quite possible that they're not, according to your definitions (and mine). To me, they'd be a bottom. But then, I also seperate sadism and masochism from relationship dynamics. However, in the community at large, it's often assumed that masochist = submissive. So, people who are masochistic often times assume that means they HAVE to list themselves as submissive. This is where we get the idea of a switch...someone who is both a sadist and a masochist must obviously be both Dominant and submissive, right? (Wrong, in my opinion).

Now, shall we discuss service roles and relationship dynamics? LOL

Master Fire



_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to dvart)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 8:32:08 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dvart

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Submissive is not just the action, it is a way of being

my point a nutshell !



My point is how can you judge that based on a profile? I mean we all make judgments about people in a half assed sort of way (at least I do), but I know that many of my judgments may not be valid. You do not know any information other than someone wrote a description in a profile of what they are looking for on this particular day and time, that could change tomorrrow, so how can you evaluate their submissiveness?

My Daddy has a rule for me, I am never to state someone is a wannabe dom, I can think it, but I am not to state this in public, why? I am a submissive, how would I know who is or is not a dominant? I may judge them as not being a dominant I would want around, but that does not mean I can judge how domly they are.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to dvart)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 8:37:20 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		dvart

Please note, the following is sarcasm but it is meant to put YOU on the other side of your "not disparaging" comments...

Who would want one of these "easy" submissives who talk all about how they want to submit?  They submit so easily, there is no challenge to dominanting them.  How boring is that?  Its sort of like having sex with a blow up doll.

The point is, worry about YOUR submission, don't go throwing labels on OTHER people.  For ME, there is nothing hotter than taming a woman who has been a bottom or even a top but upon meeting me her knees go weak and her cunt gets wet at the thought of kneeling at my feet.

Even if that ISN'T the case, judge not less thee be judged!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 8:48:47 AM   
desoutter


Posts: 91
Joined: 3/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dvart

There are some "submissives" whose profiles read like this "I'm an independent woman, I won't be a doormat, I won't do anything you ask unless I want to and sometimes (at a time of my own choosing) I will ORDER you to tie me up in such a way as I have predefined in detail." (OK I am exaggerating a little) I complete understand, because I certainly wouldn't want to submit, but isn't it a bit misleading for someone like this to describe themselves as a "submissive". Doesn't submissive imply more than a need to be tied up, such as wanting to SUBMIT to someone?


Good question....
In my opinion, a woman... especially a woman who participates in this lifestyle... MUST be dominant to some degree as submissive as they are...
It is very difficult for anyone who is submissive... in these dark days... to find someone they trust enough to give the greatest gift of submission to...

I consider 'the courtship of a sub' a crazy wild animal.... A submissive seeks out her Dom/Master for whatever her reasons may be.... but CANNOT let down her gaurd... there are just too many variables in the world that are against them.... safety for oneself is paramount and this attitude comes with a certain amount of dominance.... it has to...

A sub must be selective... cautious... careful... and then some... I do not envy the subs search for a reliable... sound... Dom.

All at once they need to be all these things and at the same time leave themselve exposed to the unknown....

I have a great deal of admiration for the sub... the act of their submission, to me, is the ultimate compliment... it says simply, 'I trust you... '
desoutter

(in reply to dvart)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 8:52:34 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline 		A fast reply -

Master Steve, formerly of Butchmann's Academy, put it best - I think. I'm paraphrasing - and note that he spoke of Master, slave as a generic reference that he was comfortable with.

"Most slaves are far more complete than the person they submit to. They are usually more accomplished, more able and more skilled. The reason that they submit is simply this - there is a hole in their heart that only someone who can Master them can fill."

My property makes my life easier, more enriched and more rewarding by her service and submission. I've found that in most cases, the slaves that do give themselves (and again, I speak generically) honestly and fully within their means are far more than doormats and one dimensional sub-cutouts.

To answer the OP, I think there are two possibilities -  the profile may not be of someone who understands what they want or the profile is of someone who wants to bottom in very specific ways. More power to the latter and kudos for being upfront in what they want. In the case of the former, it could be that they will learn, hopefully soon enough.

Regards,
EO

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 9:00:39 AM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		dvart,
 
The thing for me is this.  It takes a certain chemistry between folks to bring out the best in one another. Folks who come together who make each feel good, JUST because of the people they are, and what they stand for , and what they are about at their core.  Have you ever had a person tell you that you make them feel good, or feel submissive or feel dominant, or just feel alive, whatever, just BECAUSE you are YOU?  Tis the case in a healthy d/s or m/s relationship also.
 
i just can't submit to, or obey just anyone.  i AM choosey, because i value myself that much.  It doesn't mean that i will be obstinate or difficult to manage for a dominant, the right dominant, because i chose the dominant that best suits the person i am, and vice versa.  It works becuase i found the best person who is my complement and i theirs.  It is also about knowing who i am, as this helps me to be clear about what i seek and hope to find in another.  It is about the connection and nature of the chemistry and relationship for me FIRST and foremeost.  The rest of the bdsm, d/s or m/s exchange is just the icing on an already well baked cake. *smile
 
There have been men who have naturally brought out my submission, because they were the ones able to "recognize" in me, what they have and desire within themselves, again finding each other's complement.   They are the ones who didn't "lump" me into that herd mentality and "generic sub" pool.  Tis all in the mix of character, core beliefs and desires, etc, common interests, with the exchange of power as only ONE of the aspects in another that has the draw, that spark that comes alive between people, just because of who they are in relation to one another.  My way of caring and being afectionate is through my submisson in an intimate relationship.  Tis just my way of life and my personality and how i express myself in the context of every relationship i have ever had.  So yeah, i am going to be very careful in that respect.  Just me. *smile

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 9:01:14 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL
Master Steve, formerly of Butchmann's Academy


Side note, 'cause I'm a scientist and I have to have the facts right or it bugs the crap out of me...Master Steve Sampson is still very much a part of the APEX Academy in the Butchmanns Tradition (commonly known as Butchmanns).

Some links to what he's said about Heart of Master and Heart of Slave

Heart of Master
Heart of slave

Master Fire

< Message edited by MasterFireMaam -- 10/31/2006 9:02:33 AM >

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to ExtremeOwnerIL)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 9:35:52 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		To the Op. I wont diviate from your post like most in here have.  As far as a sub saying that she is a Sam and a challenge. Why put up with that crap. Pass her by for someone willing to work with you to make a relationship work. Why would they even  need to mention that they are not a doormat. To me that means that you have issues that you havent delt with. Get rid of your baggage before you come on here seeking. Or else put in your profile that you are a Drama Queen.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 9:57:52 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dvart

There are some "submissives" whose profiles read like this "I'm an independent woman, I won't be a doormat, I won't do anything you ask unless I want to and sometimes (at a time of my own choosing) I will ORDER you to tie me up in such a way as I have predefined in detail." (OK I am exaggerating a little)


That 'exaggerating' changes the entire context of the profile though. You can't have it both ways. You are seeking answers on a figment of your own imagination.

quote:

I complete understand, because I certainly wouldn't want to submit, but isn't it a bit misleading for someone like this to describe themselves as a "submissive". Doesn't submissive imply more than a need to be tied up, such as wanting to SUBMIT to someone?


The 'someone like this' whom you describe is someone you put forth via your own exaggeration, so if you are going to make up a worse case scenario, why ask others if that worse case is really submissive? You're the one who made it up, so what was your intention?

The thing is, you don't get to dictate to strangers how they act, what they want, how they think or anything else (you do get to form your own personal opinions on them though, so that's something!) The best you get to do is be yourself and try to find someone who likes that self or who is willing to be molded (to whatever extent) into what you desire for yourself.

Just because you don't see someone as a submissive to you, doesn't mean they are not the perfect submissive to someone else.  Your complaint is an old one. Just go check out some of the threads in the Ask a Mistress forum. ::chuckles::

Celeste



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to dvart)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 10:03:50 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

The 'someone like this' whom you describe is someone you put forth via your own exaggeration, so if you are going to make up a worse case scenario, why ask others if that worse case is really submissive? You're the one who made it up, so what was your intention?

The thing is, you don't get to dictate to strangers how they act, what they want, how they think or anything else (you do get to form your own personal opinions on them though, so that's something!) The best you get to do is be yourself and try to find someone who likes that self or who is willing to be molded (to whatever extent) into what you desire for yourself.

Just because you don't see someone as a submissive to you, doesn't mean they are not the perfect submissive to someone else.  Your complaint is an old one. Just go check out some of the threads in the Ask a Mistress forum. ::chuckles::

Celeste



Exactly, this sounds like is a fictionalized submissive/bottom created as a straw man to debate who is "real" and who is "not". Very well stated Celeste about one man's submissive is another's do me...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 10:20:04 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
Side note, 'cause I'm a scientist and I have to have the facts right or it bugs the crap out of me...Master Steve Sampson is still very much a part of the APEX Academy in the Butchmanns Tradition (commonly known as Butchmanns).

Some links to what he's said about Heart of Master and Heart of Slave

Heart of Master
Heart of slave

Master Fire


Fantastic news (and good to hear he's still around) and thank you for the links - I had lost them long ago.

Regards,
EO

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 10:25:30 AM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dvart

There are some "submissives" whose profiles read like this "I'm an independent woman, I won't be a doormat, I won't do anything you ask unless I want to and sometimes (at a time of my own choosing) I will ORDER you to tie me up in such a way as I have predefined in detail." (OK I am exaggerating a little) I complete understand, because I certainly wouldn't want to submit, but isn't it a bit misleading for someone like this to describe themselves as a "submissive". Doesn't submissive imply more than a need to be tied up, such as wanting to SUBMIT to someone?

In some cases they are bottoms, unfortunatly, collame does not give them a specific section in which to state this; all they have to choose from is submissive/slave

Also you must remember that a profile is nothing more than an introduction. You may find, after actually talking to a person, that they are more submissive than you previously thought.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to dvart)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 2:39:56 PM   
Morrigel


Posts: 492
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting thread.  I have always recognized the difference between "bottoms" and "submissives" myself, but I recognize in both categories that they have to have decent social skills before I'd want to play with them.  There are many non-submissive bottoms who I have loved as friends and played with at public events, but these people were not self-identified as "submissives" or "slaves"--most of them said they were switches, as I recall, if any label was needed at all beyond, "Hi!  My name is ____."

I wonder if having to categorize oneself in a certain way, sight unseen, creates false expectations in others?

--M

(in reply to Kalira)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 3:38:35 PM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Yes I think a bottom or top category needs to be included on CM.  When you have limited choices to choose from and yours isn't on there all you can do is pick the closest and use your profile to explain. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 3:51:36 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsKatHouston

That sounds more like a bottom to me.  But I don't think there is an option for bottom only on here.  (could be wrong) So, in such cases, one probably has to delve a bit deeper into exactly what the person is looking for in terms of control. 


Hello A/all,

I have to agree with this.  Some people simply enjoy getting beaten or dominated sexually, but dont really have any need or desire to "submit" to another person.

I dont think there is anything wrong with this.  I am sure that such people will eventually find somebody who likes them that way.

Domination and submission, to me, is mostly mental, and the beatings and cheerleader outfit-butt rapings, kung fu action grip, spankings, orgasms, floggings, are all simply icing on the cake to me.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to MsKatHouston)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 4:18:22 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

Yes I think a bottom or top category needs to be included on CM.  When you have limited choices to choose from and yours isn't on there all you can do is pick the closest and use your profile to explain. 


I think you will have few who will check off bottom and not submissive, ditto for tops and Doms. Very few.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to sharainks)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 4:51:55 PM   
Kaledorus


Posts: 95
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline 		Most of the people you will meet are those who in reality are just kinky and not into genuine Dominance and submission. They may well think that they have these traits but in actuality are just out for the sex games. Nothing wrong with that of course but it tends to muddy the field. So-called "scene parties" and all of that stuff is rife with such examples.

(in reply to dvart)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 5:28:05 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		"just kinky" and not pure like I am

What arrogant condescending bullshit.

quote:

  Nothing wrong with that of course but it tends to muddy the field.


So is there nothing wrong with it or is it "muddy"?

Sometimes I really can't stand the idiocy I see here.  As far as people like yourself are concerned, please always consider me "muddy", "just kinky" and whatever other slurs you want to throw around and NEVER include me in whatever idiotic pool you play in.

(in reply to Kaledorus)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: I wonder if some "submissives" want to su... - 10/31/2006 7:54:06 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline 		As a switch I run into this from both sides ALL THE TIME. You get the boys that want all the kinky sex stuff but OMG the world comes to anend and they freak out if you ask about service or what's in it for you. Well you get to fuck me with a strap on, yeah but I'm looking for extended play and more practical items. OH you're one of those take advantage domestic dommes that wants a slave to be your bitch.  rant, rave, piss, moan call you everything under the sun and the next morning you get the email so do you want to fuck me or not. Umm pass.
The other side of the coin I handle with a simple statement. I'm a bitch but not your bitch. Refine your approach or move on. It doesn't make me not submissive it makes me not interested in submission to that person. Doormats and sluts are easy to tame, a good submissive takes some work.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 40
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