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Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 2:10:19 PM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		In another forum thread i noticed a post that mentioned "female" persuasion.
 
This got me to thinking ... about how female persuasion has gotten some bad reviews...*smile and i believe that the differences between this and manipulation are seperated by a very fine line. Which often causes the bad reviews...lol
 
Sometimes, the direct approach doesn't always work with some folks for whatever the reasons, and they may require some persuasion; as for example:  In getting them to see a doctor for their health, or paying their bills responsibly, etc.
 
i tend to view persuasion as being more of an art, when applied correctly and with honrable intentions being the key, to telling the difference.  In business, persuasion is often highly valued for the cohesive functioning of organizational structure. 
 
Is it equally valued within a relationship, especially one of M/s dynamic?
 
On surface thought, i find it is tricky at times, to tell the difference between persuasion and manipulation, without knowing the intentions of the one doing it.
 
i view manipulation as a means of one person trying to gain a form of control, using less than honorable intentions.
 
i view persuasion as one person trying to direct another to act upon, or consider certain perspectives other than their own, in a non threatening approach, with the intent that the other person will have a wider range of possibilities to aid them in their final descision.
 
Does the art of persuasion have a place in your personal relationship? 
Are you able to notice or tell the difference between a persuasive (honorable) intention, from what constitutes manipulative intent? 
 
i see nothing wrong with honorable persuasion, because the intent is not to gain control, but rather to direct another's attention to be opento at least consider a different perspective, that may be of some benefit.  Just my personal thoughts here. *grin
 
Thank You in advance *smile
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 2:20:41 PM   
AnAtlantaDom


Posts: 98
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		In the relationships I've had I expect my partner to be persuasive.  I've learned over years of trial and ERROR that I can't read minds, hard as I try to do so. It is, in my opinion, important for both partners to, here we go again, COMMUNICATE w/ one another.  I consider the communication, which may include persuasion, to be of a great value in the relationship. Fom some I'm sure it may not be included in an M/s.  That would be determined by the dynamic of the relationship. AD

Edited for typoese & grammar

< Message edited by AnAtlantaDom -- 9/15/2006 2:45:27 PM >

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 2:21:11 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Persuasion is when I attempt to talk my Dom into something he is undecided about, or is doubtful about. I am pretty forthright about what I want. I am assertive in stating the reasons why I want it or why it is a good idea. I will even bring it up again and again until I am told to drop it...smiles...

Manipulation enters the picture when I do not take no for an answer and use indirect ways of trying to get my way. That is NOT going to work for me very well in my current relationship...smiles. He will  make sure I do not get my way if I attempt to manipulate him. I do not know this from experience, but I can tell you without even trying it that it would not work with him...ha ha. He has told me to drop something a time or two... and I did immediately and forever.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 2:47:01 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear raiken, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my mind's eye, persuasion can be seen as affiliation or influence.  Based on the thread we're talking about influence.
 
In either influence through persuasion and or manipulation, my views are seen through the intent of the one applying either manipulation and or persuasion. 
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 2:58:25 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

In another forum thread i noticed a post that mentioned "female" persuasion.
 
This got me to thinking ... about how female persuasion has gotten some bad reviews...*smile and i believe that the differences between this and manipulation are seperated by a very fine line. Which often causes the bad reviews...lol
 
Sometimes, the direct approach doesn't always work with some folks for whatever the reasons, and they may require some persuasion; as for example:  In getting them to see a doctor for their health, or paying their bills responsibly, etc.
 
i tend to view persuasion as being more of an art, when applied correctly and with honrable intentions being the key, to telling the difference.  In business, persuasion is often highly valued for the cohesive functioning of organizational structure. 
 
Is it equally valued within a relationship, especially one of M/s dynamic?
 
On surface thought, i find it is tricky at times, to tell the difference between persuasion and manipulation, without knowing the intentions of the one doing it.
 
i view manipulation as a means of one person trying to gain a form of control, using less than honorable intentions.
 
i view persuasion as one person trying to direct another to act upon, or consider certain perspectives other than their own, in a non threatening approach, with the intent that the other person will have a wider range of possibilities to aid them in their final descision.
 
Does the art of persuasion have a place in your personal relationship? 
Are you able to notice or tell the difference between a persuasive (honorable) intention, from what constitutes manipulative intent? 
 
i see nothing wrong with honorable persuasion, because the intent is not to gain control, but rather to direct another's attention to be opento at least consider a different perspective, that may be of some benefit.  Just my personal thoughts here. *grin
 
Thank You in advance *smile


I think someone can 'pursuade' with less than honorable intentions as well.  The word  pursuade however,  is more gently digested than the word manipulate by most people. (I think).  To me, theres not much difference, if any at all, except in people's perceptions and associations with the respective terms.

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:35:30 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		It might be helpful to see how the dictionary defines these terms

persuade
1 : to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action
2 : to plead with : URGE
- per·suad·er noun


manipulate
1 : to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose : DOCTOR



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/15/2006 3:36:13 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:42:41 PM   
OhReallyNow


Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		while this slave is encouraged to be open and honest with Master about EVERTHING, she would never try to persuade him to her way of thinking. If Master brings up something that he is undecided about, and this slave responds to it with either advice or sympathy; it is just that. This slave is not trying to 'persuade' Master to go one way or the other.
as to manipulation; this slave fears that more than anything  to try and manipulate Master to a certain way of thinking or action;  is to  receive the worse punishment that can be delivered; not to mention the disappointment that Master would feel if his property were to try such a thing.

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:44:00 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		You would not urge him by pleading?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to OhReallyNow)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:44:21 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with marie here. First of all, as a matter of connotation, the word persuasion does carry with it an air of manipulation.

Wikipedia says it is the guiding of someone toward something that is "meant to benefit all parties in the end" as opposed to manipulation which, also according to Wikipedia, is the act of guiding someone toward something that is not in their best interest, but I think that in the exercising of a D/s dynamic, in most cases to say that the end justifies the means would not be true. I think that in the D/s dynamic, the nature of the means is just as important as the end. In fact, I would say that much of the emphasis in my D/s relationship is on the means.

For that reason, I'd tread that ground lightly, were I to tread it at all.

Also, I would caution that if a person is inclined to manipulate, she might just persuade herself that what she is doing isnt manipulation at all, when in fact is manipulation by another, friendlier name.

What matters is intent, regardless of what you want to call it.

We all know that manipulation, bottoming from the top, etc. are actions not respectful of the power exchange/dynamic inherent to D/s. I would like to think that a wise dom would appreciate a submissive who includes in her supplication (respectfully) her knowledge relevent to the situation and her unique perspective.

If you want to call that persuasion, well, I think it's a little bit of a stretch, but ok.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:45:42 PM   
OhReallyNow


Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You would not urge him by pleading?

this slave would not , nor has she tried

 

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:48:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		justheather, I usually am a stickler for using my words with the connotation I mean and in how they are defined by the dictionary... persuasion has very little to do with manipulation... it means that you present information to someone about your feelings, about facts they may not know, about cause and effect.. it has nothing to do with being "sneaky". If you ever begged for anything you were using your pleas to persuade  your dominant to a course of action...

It is a pet peeve of mine, inventing defintions for words that do not exist.. these words are not even related to each other as far as the dictionary defines them.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:49:48 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OhReallyNow

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You would not urge him by pleading?

this slave would not , nor has she tried

 


My former dom demanded I plead for everything..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to OhReallyNow)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:52:01 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Just from how we typically use the words, you would think that 'persuade' is something that is 'light and fluffy', while 'manipulate' is 'evil and coarse'.  I see it differently.

If we take the old adage 'You say po-tay-to and I'll say po-tah-to', then there is a disagreement.  One or the other is probably correct, and it is possible that both of them are correct.  Each person will state their case, and a debate ensues.  If somehow one person is able to convince the other person that they are 'wrong', then an agreement is reached.  (It could also be that the one person is more skilled at debate.)  This would be persuasion.

But in this case, the act of persuasion also involves a 'choice'.  One person or another could choose that their prior position was incorrect, admit fault, and agreement is established.  However, both parties can agree that neither of them have made compelling cases for their argument, both sides agree to disagree, and no persuasion has occurred.

In our BDSM world, we set up relationships, either temporary or lasting, where the balance of control is tipped in one way.  The bearer of the responsibility of the control makes the rules.  He/she is granted the authority to manipulate the other party or the 'situation' in whatever manner they select.  I agree with Julia's dictionary definition but I would simplify things to say that manipulation is the art of 'getting someone to do something they would not ordinarily do'.

Persuasion involves choice, manipulation involves the choice being taken away.

That's my opinion.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:52:52 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken
i view manipulation as a means of one person trying to gain a form of control, using less than honorable intentions.

i view persuasion as one person trying to direct another to act upon, or consider certain perspectives other than their own, in a non threatening approach, with the intent that the other person will have a wider range of possibilities to aid them in their final descision.

Does the art of persuasion have a place in your personal relationship?
Are you able to notice or tell the difference between a persuasive (honorable) intention, from what constitutes manipulative intent?



Seduction may be one thing, but I have always believed there is very little temptation from outside one's heart, and this is why I refuse to manipulate. If a certain desire or the seeds of it do not prevail within another, I have no interest in pursuing what would ultimately constitute a chess match of the psyche to convince otherwise. There is no need to display your ability to the unwilling audience; only those who would truly appreciate it are deserving.




< Message edited by amayos -- 9/15/2006 3:54:22 PM >

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 3:58:44 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnAtlantaDom

In the relationships I've had I expect my partner to be persuasive.  I've learned over years of trial and ERROR that I can't read minds, hard as I try to do so. It is, in my opinion, important for both partners to, here we go again, COMMUNICATE w/ one another.  I consider the communication, which may include persuasion, to be of a great value in the relationship. Fom some I'm sure it may not be included in an M/s.  That would be determined by the dynamic of the relationship. AD

Edited for typoese & grammar


There's that word again, *Communicate*.

(in reply to AnAtlantaDom)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 4:00:17 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		julia, I agree with you that based on the denotations of those words, there is no manipulation inherently involved in persuasion. (I was speaking to connotation and more specifically the connotation of my own personal experience.)

However, the OP refers to persuasion as turning around a dom's way of thinking or getting to a desired outcome by indirect means. My response is to what is written in the OP, not the webster's dictionary. You give pleading as an example of persuasion, I do not see this as in line with the type of thing the OP is suggesting. Maybe you and I read it differently, but the mention of indirect means is what I focused on in my response.

I believe this is shaky ground onwhich to tread - taking on the responsibility for changing your Dom's mind and then doing it by indirect means. For many people this would be a convenient rationalization for manipulation. It is not my job to outsmart my Daddy, even if it is "for his own good". It is my job to communicate with him openly and lovingly and with deference and to have patience and trust that he is a reasonable, intelligent person who loves me and does want what is best for himself and for us.

Like I said before, it's all about intention.

< Message edited by justheather -- 9/15/2006 4:01:12 PM >

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 4:00:26 PM   
OhReallyNow


Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: OhReallyNow

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You would not urge him by pleading?

this slave would not , nor has she tried

 


My former dom demanded I plead for everything..

LOL this slave learned very early on in her relationship with Master to NEVER beg, or plead for anything; in any sense or in reference to any act
she has learned that because Master knows her so well, she does not have to beg or plead  Master is aware of exactly what this slave wants at any given time, and 9 times out of 10, Master is correct.
 
however, returning to the original context of the OP
if Master was to mention something to this slave; let's say, a question about where or what this slave would like to do for the weekend...and she replied that she had a real urge to go to the beach and see the Lake...after mentioning it one time, this slave would not mention it again. To do so would be to try and influence Masters decision, and that is not something that this slave would do, or that Master would allow.

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 4:09:01 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

I agree with marie here. First of all, as a matter of connotation, the word persuasion does carry with it an air of manipulation.

Wikipedia says it is the guiding of someone toward something that is "meant to benefit all parties in the end" as opposed to manipulation which, also according to Wikipedia, is the act of guiding someone toward something that is not in their best interest, but I think that in the exercising of a D/s dynamic, in most cases to say that the end justifies the means would not be true. I think that in the D/s dynamic, the nature of the means is just as important as the end. In fact, I would say that much of the emphasis in my D/s relationship is on the means.

For that reason, I'd tread that ground lightly, were I to tread it at all.

Also, I would caution that if a person is inclined to manipulate, she might just persuade herself that what she is doing isnt manipulation at all, when in fact is manipulation by another, friendlier name.

What matters is intent, regardless of what you want to call it.

We all know that manipulation, bottoming from the top, etc. are actions not respectful of the power exchange/dynamic inherent to D/s. I would like to think that a wise dom would appreciate a submissive who includes in her supplication (respectfully) her knowledge relevent to the situation and her unique perspective.

If you want to call that persuasion, well, I think it's a little bit of a stretch, but ok.

Just Heather, well said!

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 4:09:13 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I did not read iit that way, and now understand what you mean,... persuasion isn't sneaky

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Persausion verses manipulation - 9/15/2006 4:13:53 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Begging is a kink for some people and a dom can order his sub to beg, as my former one was very fond of.

My Daddy is also very fond of my persuading him in a petulant and bratty way for his pleasure. Who am I to question such things?

I do not see anything wrong with persuasion, not covert persuasion, but open and honest kind. My Daddy said just last night he loves my opinionatedness and my ability not to shy away from persuading anyone of anything...smiles.. it is innate to me like being blonde is. If he says to shut my piehole I do..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to OhReallyNow)
Profile   Post #: 20
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