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Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 2:06:23 PM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		KnightofMists's thread on language got me to thinking about what occured at a lifestyle gathering i attended not to long ago.
 
The structure at this man's house appeared to be all about rank and positioning, and the Master did appear to bark out his orders to his slaves quite frequently during the evening.  There was a new slave there, who i noticed took those orders hard and was in tears on several times throughout the evening.  During a discussion, about her tears, one of the other dominants, i presume was a close friend of the house, made mention that this wasn't the army.  This was a comment that stuck in my head.
 
As the discussion turned to debate, another comment was made that training of slaves works best in a military type of setting, where the slave is forced to bring her emotions under control.  Others compared the structure to the heirarchy of the ranks found in the armed forces.  i have heard this view expressed on groups before as well.
 
One of the slaves says she thrives in this type of environment, while the majority of others, including the one in tears, felt it was too harsh and extreme and that it took away from feeling fulfilled emotionally.
 
i have mixed feelings on this, for at times i feel i crave this type of structure and at other times, i feel i would break under it.
 
My questions are:  What is your perspective on this?  Does a military approach work for you? Are you more fulfilled in this type of ridgid structure and setting?



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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 2:08:32 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Oddly enough, as much as I need consistency and understood expectations, I really don't like rituals and have probably the most easy going relationship I've ever known anyone to have.

Once the groundwork is laid for me...it's just go with the flow. 

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 2:13:55 PM   
Lashra


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Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		For some it will work for others it will not. It would not work in my house as I'm very easy going and so is my sub. We are both happiest that way. I have few rituals and those are carried out, so I am happy. I think after awhile a sub who couldn't deal with that military style would indeed crack and beg for release or loose a part of themselves and become rather zombie like. Neither of which I find appealing. I'm sure some subs flourish but it would depend upon each personality as everyone is different.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 2:17:34 PM   
eyezOfblue


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Status: offline 		I find it much more enjoyable for everyone involved if things are more light hearted, at least most times.  I also enjoy some structure in my relationships. 

I somehow get this feeling though that if I were commanded to the point of tears in public the way you describe, I would leave.

blue

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 2:22:28 PM   
raiken


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Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		It appeared to me that she was falling apart.  Her Master said that he felt it was what she needed because he said she didn't have a backbone.  He said good army training gives a person that.  i thought to myself, sheesh, i agree with the other dominant who said this wasn't the army.  i see the point, but surely there are other ways to help a slave get a backbone besides breaking them down to where they ae falling apart.  It was explained to me that she will either get a back bone or fall apart.  His comment triggered many thoughts, which i kept to myself, it was one of those rare times that i was actually NOT in a talking mood! *grinz  So i wondred about that statement for a while. i would be interested in knowing if this approach has indeed helped a slave in this type of context.

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 2:28:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken
Her Master said that he felt it was what she needed because he said she didn't have a backbone.  He said good army training gives a person that. 

Anyone who thinks that one method will work across the bar is simply going with what they know, taking the easy way out and being short sighted.

Change usually takes a measure of tough love, and tough discipline.  How much, where, when, and how it is applied completely depends on the person.

Militaristic training has its place and is very applicable to many situations and I know of many Ds situations where a militaristic style is exactly perfect for the situation.

But just to say it will work for everyone or it is THE cure for this particular person without knowing anything else about the situation is definitely overextending things.

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 2:39:43 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

My questions are:  What is your perspective on this?  Does a military approach work for you? Are you more fulfilled in this type of ridgid structure and setting?

Raiken,
Depends on the goal. The goal of militaristic training assuming, based upon your description, that you observed the equivalent of "basic training" is to break down the thought process and get the trainee to respond to the command as if automated. It's purpose is to reduce not only emotions, but independent thought so that the order to kill or attack is carried out even if it's directed to the parents of the recruit. If the goal of the Master is to have a slave who responded to orders and complies without any thought the training stops there and the goal is reached.

In the military training goes on. After being "broken" they are built up and especially now with the sophistication of the weapons and tactics they are taught to think "like soldiers". Taught to think independently, thought to improvise and consider their circumstances.

Would it "work" for me - No, because I don't and didn't have that as my goal. But I see it as a legitimate method. If the Master has the goal that results from this training it's a great example to use.

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 3:13:48 PM   
NastyDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

...one of the other dominants... made mention that this wasn't the army.  This was a comment that stuck in my head.
 

This one's SO easy.... the other dominant was ex Air Force and used the word "ain't". 

Military ties to bdsm are prevalent in history.  One of the most well known worldwide bdsm stereotypes is of the corset clad dominatrix wearing a nazi hat. Perhaps the mindfucks done on those military members who actually make it through boot camp have in turn manifested themselves into unusual kinks, behaviors or management techniques?

Conversely, one could say the same thing about farmers getting mindfucked by weather forecasters and farm animals with attitudes. So maybe it was Farmer Smith who invented pony play.... a shocking thought, oops, then electricians could have invented electrical play... oh shit, who invented scat play?

In your described experience it seems the militaristic dominants had multiple slaves. The dynamics of single dominant/single slave would be very difficult to apply to a house of slaves. It's easier to speak louder to all, so that everyone hears you, so you bark alot. If you hear the one you fear/adore/wish-to-serve barking what do you do? This word fear may not be fear of pain or punishment, but can be fear of loss of favor in the barker's eyes... to fear of being singled out or humilated in front of fellow slaves. Perhaps the slave in tears should stand in the rear of the formation until she gets used to everybody being barked at.

In the miitary it matters not how many tears... it's simply, "if you are taller than the person in front of you, tap them on the shoulder and move up"... so the shorter emotional people make out, and get lost in the rear of the formation. This is all good and cushy, especially for those that are clumbsy.... until the formation is ordered to do an "about face", and then you march your clumbsy short ass into the taller clumbsy person in front of you!

One could say a military style of domination targets cohesion of many... and leaves few places to hide in plain sight.  

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 3:43:19 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Not observing the facts first hand I can't be sure, so I'll refrain from making a judgement about the the person in question.
They may or may not actually know what they are doing, Drill seargents go to a special school where they learn to break down and rebuild various types of people they will encounter. Without the rebuild it's pretty worthless in my mind to break someone down. Military roots of training in the leather culture are noticeable, Sir was a military term as well as a term for nobility.

US military training methods were one of the starting points for the "Old Guard" when they started after returning from WWII. They had shared the experience and it built a connection they longed for after they returned.

The usefullness of military type training when you know the who, what, where, when and how crosses many if not most types of people. If you have not been filled in and are just mimicing it without the knowedge behind it then like with times when you have "a little bit of knowledge" you're playing with fire.




< Message edited by Archer -- 9/8/2006 3:44:28 PM >

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 3:52:57 PM   
smilezz


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Status: offline 		Thorns is Military...i have a Military background.  While He does not have to bark out orders to me, nothing would surprise me if He chose to.  We both crave the structure of the Military.......i just crave structure  *chucklez*.  As far as ranks go................He out ranks me.  lol

~smilezz~

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 4:49:50 PM   
raiken


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Status: offline 		okay...So from what you all shared, it is possible that the Master sees the soldier in her, so to speak.  Instead of thinking like a soldier, he is training her to think like his slave, or the slave he wants and knows she can be.  The part about cohesion of the group, seems to make sense in their house, if indeed this is his mindset.  But this was also done in front of others who were strangers, that is the part that had the greatest impact on me.  The idea of having her stand in the back, until she can get her bearings, to do the about face, so to speak, sounds fair to me.  So hopefully her Master knows, the how, why, when, what, where, of this type of conditioning.  Hopefully.  The vision of  her stumbling to her tasks in tears and sobs, hiding behind her hair, with her shoulders curled inward, just hit my head strange.  It wasn't nothing out of the ordinary, but the whole energy in that environment was unique and different.  i can understand about how after receiving this type of structure and conditioning, how one could crave to have some part of that remain. 
 
But what about the times when one would crave a softer touch, or simply need it, to feel fulfilled.  Aside from the mutual consent stuff...etc. For that type of structure to really accomplish its purpose, the softer touch may not be applied, if the training is to complete the goal?  or could it? 
What happens if she breaks?  Just thoughts...the visual was a jolt for some reason... What do they do in the military when a soldier just breaks down...?
 
Thanks for your thoughts, helps to get a better understanding since i have never been in the military. 

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 5:00:41 PM   
Casie


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Status: offline 		I don't think I would like to being in an "army" type invioroment. I love structure, security, and a stern hand but on the other hand I also love compassion, understanding, and guidence. For me personally, That would not be a type of envioroment I would grow and strive in. 

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 5:09:20 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would suggest that if it is emotionally disturbing to an individual they should rethink what they are doing. I know some people say that once you become a slave this is not possible.. I suppose if that is the truth of it, as a slave it is impossible to leave an emotionally damaging situation, well I feel pity for ones such as these. I just do.

I have had jobs that reduced me to tears because my dignity was hurt. I do not think it is ok to damage people's dignity. If someone is happy being in this sort of situation where orders are barked at them and they thrive under such circumstances, well I suppose that is good for them, I wouldn't hold up well and would probably become rebellious. That is just my nature. I see any dynamic I want to be involved with as speaking to the inner child that wants to please a beloved adult figure. That is not what you described in your OP, so I have to say I would not deal well with the situation you described and would not stay in it. But that is just me, others will have different experiences with such things.

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 6:00:04 PM   
mstrjx


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Status: offline 		I haven't been in the military, but I have known managers in the vanilla world that have used intimidation as their primary mode of doing business.  Can you believe there are still people like that?

My approach is quite different.  Instead of feeding 'off' of someone's insecurities, I try to build a submissive's ego up, to remove their insecurities.  That way they are more self-actualized and any behavioral, emotional things that might happen during the dominance is based upon the submissive being fully grounded.

Jeff

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 7:31:10 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		What happens when they break down? Well if you know what you're doing then begins the rebuild, torn away the old ways of thinking of looking at the world, removed the old values, then is the time for the new values to be instilled.
When they break is when you know they are ready to be rebuilt into what you want them to be. It tends to be a radical approach, but it also is very fast and efficient, which is why the military uses it, not because it is the best way but because in the trade off between fast and good it gets them the result in a reasonable amount of time.

Personally I spent time in the army and I never encountered a time where shouting/ barking orders was nessisary for me other than in simulated combat or operations where there was no time to "be nice". You barked orders when time was of the essence, you told them calmly when time allowed a bit more, you sold the idea to them when time permitted. This is the method that I was taught. You use whatever method you have time for but in the end a request was as good as an order.
The amount of time where barking orders was the order of the day was short lived even durin basic training it really only l;asted a few weeks, after which you got to the point where you most often just got instructions and sent on your way to get it done.

I doubt many folks would deal well with the basic training level of barking orders and in your face military stuff, that goes beyond a short time (matter of 3 or 4 months at most) It's designed to start heavy break a person down and give a little time to build you back up within an 8-13 week period. Beyond that military order and discipline tends to be more like a clearly established hierarchy than anything like barkin orders.

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 8:18:24 PM   
Mavis


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Status: offline 		i've been thru some close to that.  Masters pet peeve is if given and A or B question, i almost always answer C.   In His trying to condition me to answer the question first, then add info if requested, i have been given 10 seconds to answer a question.

While i stammer over A or B, knowing my best answer is really C..  He will ask the question again, and tell me i now have 7 seconds to answer.  As panic sets in, i have less and less time to decide between two answers that i feel will BOTH be wrong.. i have been reduced to tears.  when it's down to 3 seconds, 2 seconds.. i finally blurt out a choice..   

i finlly learned it wasn't about my idea of the suitability of answer C, it was about choosing only the parameters given me, then trusting enough that i would be given the opportunity to offer more data, but only AFTER i satisfied the first objective, obey.

Admittedly, it's not pleasent. and i highly doubt He'd subject me to those types of stringent exercises in view of others for the reason you stated, it could make people uncomfortable, but it has it's purpose. Was very effective for me.






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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 8:19:52 PM   
Lashra


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Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I doubt he is a psychologist and can realise what this could be doing to her mentally. Though from the sound of it he probably doesn't care, a broken slave is more compliant and easier for him to manage.

Not my style at all, but to each their own.

~Lashsra





_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 8:34:49 PM   
Taylore


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quote:

What is your perspective on this?  Does a military approach work for you? Are you more fulfilled in this type of ridgid structure and setting?

My father was career military, so this kind of structure is second nature to me. Master, however, is very laid back in regards to rigid protocol and structure.

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 9:07:29 PM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline 		Hello A/all,

A comment that Archer made had parallels in the martial arts world.

There is the concept of a Master making a wooden deck.  When the deck is being laid out according to how the Master wants it to be laid out, there will occaisionally be those nails or boards which stick out.  These need to be flattened, which is why many styles emotionally beat down the graduates when they are adrenalized from their test.

Im not promoting this approach, simply drawing a comparison.

In my opinion, the person who goes in to beating a person down in the relationship misses the point, in my opinion.  While the flattening approach is valid, what the person doing the flattening, in my opinion, needs to remember is that they are trying to make something out of this person.

Simply flattening a person because one can qualifies as abuse in my opinion.  Flattening the person to make them into something better than what they were is completely appropriate.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: Militeristic Lifestyle - 9/8/2006 9:24:38 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Hammering on something usually means you take into account what the material you're working with is.
Wood doesn't take hammering very well beyond a certain level however if you are working metal hammering is a perfectly valid system with a much harder hammering.

The Military system is likened to forge work many times, first you heat the metal and let it cool slowly(annealing SP) it makes the metal easier to work. The first week of basic was very much along those lines as I recall lots of heat but little preasure.
Then more heat applied to help shape the metal into it's form through hammering. Finally the alternating heat and cooling in rapid order the work of tempering this makes the metal retain it's shape longer, making the metal harder than it was. Temperng though is a delicate process too much heat and too fast a cool and the metal becomes brittle and shatters when put to work.
Not enough heat and too slow a cool down and the metal ends up to soft and will not retain it's shape.

Same idea applies to Sinergy's example hammer too hard and you break the wood, hammer too light and the floor remains uneven.

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