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RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 8:22:44 AM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

As to your last question several years back a university ( I can't remember who) did a study where they sent several people into two separate rooms. The one half sent E-Mail messages to the other half. In over 70% of the E-Mails the tone the person who sent the message thought the words in, and the tone the recipients heard when they read the words did not match. I think person to person is a much clearer way to interpret intentions of something someone said to you. The written word in my opinion rarely will show you someone's real personality if you've never met or spoken before.

Suzanne

I think this is important and should be on forums everywhere...smiles. I try not to assume what people mean by a post unless it is obviously snarky. I usually try to ask them to clarify... you cannot tell tone and body language and a whole host of other things from someone's posts, emails, instant messages. I have met several people I had started correspondence with online (many that were 'just friends', and while some of them were exactly like they seemed in only words, some of them were not anything like what I thought they would be.

I do not think most people are prepared for the fact I laugh constantly and I am slightly hyper when they meet me...lol

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/8/2006 8:24:16 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to onestandingstill)

Post #: 21

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 9:00:45 AM

Mavis

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Joined: 2/8/2004
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This was an epiphany for me, to realise i had been hearing "requests" from Hubby for 20 some years, and He was thinking they were somewhat more than that. NOW i know His *requests are more often than not actually hints.. which in His mind are known wishes = commands. Which is what lead Him to believe no way could i or would i be submissive. He read my waiting for clear directives as "she won't do a damn thing unless she's hit over the head with it." Damn.

i maybe should be embarrassed to admit it, but all the lessons on "before a command is needed, meet known wishes" were making a lot of sense to me, but i didn't have the trained ear to catch known wishes as implied commands until a bit of practical guidance. What Master pointed out is Hubbys pattern of doing the nilla socially acceptable way of making wishes known, and seeing hints fly over my head.

He asked "So, what's for dinner?", and assuming He was actually asking what's for dinner, i answered, and continued the conversation. Master stopped and gave me the *blink* and said, there ya go, He's asking if you're planning to get up and MAKE dinner.. like why doesn't He see it in progress yet.. if you know what's for dinner, and He's asking about it, why aren't you up making progress on the damn meal? He just asked about dinner, and you're just Sitting here?

erm.. sputter, well.. erm.. because i thought He just wanted to know. i know this doesn't mesh with what W/we tell new Dominants.. to be clear on expectations, don't make us read Your minds.. but in this, Master has a point. Since i know what dinner is going to be, i could be most proactive by saying tonights dinner is tacos, what time would You like to eat?

What just slays me is how it is so obvious to the Hims what They mean, and They Both see it as either i'm being obtuse or deliberately resistant.
:: sniffles :: i think of myself as fairly astute, i know "Get me a drink?" is not a simple request, but other things, i have to really back up and devine what prompts the questions or comments to be proactive.

These little exchanges have helped B/both of U/us move toward center, with me picking up more on hints, and Him making more direct statements about His wishes or needs, but it's not easy to break old patterns. i love it when the lightbulb goes on and i can say "wow, He WAS taking control, i just didn't see it" and i'm happy to comply, and get the satisfaction of actually being pleasing on His terms.

(in reply to onestandingstill)

Post #: 22

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 9:15:50 AM

mountainpet

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This is mostly an education and literacy issue. When e-mail and text messages were first invented, they were praised as a means to communicate in words and ideas, rather than stage gestures and histeronics. Body language, facial expressions and gestured can be used to mislead, just as written words can. It all comes down to what you are best at- words or gestures.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 23

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 10:14:42 AM

raiken

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Joined: 10/18/2005
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There are also other nuances of culture to consider. Some cultures are more loud and expressive than others. Some are raised to be stern and quiet in outward expression, while others encourage it. What may seem like an emotional outburst of voice to one, may be normal standard of expression for another. Some tend to view any raising of the voice as an act of disrespect, where another may interpret this as merely showing the level of emotion or passion attached to the words.

It also depends on how well the receiver is able to interpret and understand the voice inflection and paralanguage of another.

How one holds their mouth and uses their facial muscles when speaking is another indicator used to view the intent behind the words.

Especially when speaking on the phone, breathing plays an important role in understanding vocal expression. Shallow breaths change the sound of many words, those who are familiar with this will pick up on it. Those who are not familiar with deeper subtleties and nuances will miss it entirely. The spoken word comes out in different subtle tones when said from the head, chest or deep belly. The difference in tone will portray where the depth of emotion resides in conjunction with the words. sometimes, it is not the words that convey the thought, but rather the paralanguage that conveys the feelings behind the words.

Since the body cannot lie, it will often betray the spoken word and those feelings or intentions of the one speaking may become transparent. Just adding some random thoughts.

(in reply to mountainpet)

Post #: 24

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 10:19:52 AM

onestandingstill

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quote:

Some cultures are more loud and expressive than others. Some are raised to be stern and quiet in outward expression, while others encourage it. What may seem like an emotional outburst of voice to one, may be normal standard of expression for another. Some tend to view any raising of the voice as an act of disrespect, where another may interpret this as merely showing the level of emotion or passion attached to the words.

Hi raiken,
I'm glad you mentioned this. It never occured to me till you said it. Instantly I was back to being 4 and asking a Spanish friend why her parents fought so much. They were always yelling it seemed. She said they were actually talking about cutting up salad and her parents were not arguing, it was just the way of their language.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Suzanne

(in reply to raiken)

Post #: 25

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 10:21:59 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mountainpet

This is mostly an education and literacy issue. When e-mail and text messages were first invented, they were praised as a means to communicate in words and ideas, rather than stage gestures and histeronics. Body language, facial expressions and gestured can be used to mislead, just as written words can. It all comes down to what you are best at- words or gestures.

Actually it is not that easy for the average person to be deceptive with body language.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mountainpet)

Post #: 26

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 10:35:33 AM

raiken

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Joined: 10/18/2005
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Suzanne, yes, that was the way i grew up, my culture being of latin origins, everyone was naturally loud and boisterous, and if you wanted to get a word in, you had to join in and do as others did. Raise your voice and sometimes shout to be heard above the rucous! *smile

Julia, you are correct, most of the time the paralanguage of the body will reveal the truth behind the words. Unless one is really good at acting and in understanding the paralanguage and nuances of their bodily expressions, the body cannot lie.

(in reply to onestandingstill)

Post #: 27

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 10:37:28 AM

kisshou

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great post Mavis, thanks for sharing !

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 28

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 10:53:39 AM

raiken

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Joined: 10/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

He asked "So, what's for dinner?", and assuming He was actually asking what's for dinner, i answered, and continued the conversation. Master stopped and gave me the *blink* and said, there ya go, He's asking if you're planning to get up and MAKE dinner.. like why doesn't He see it in progress yet.. if you know what's for dinner, and He's asking about it, why aren't you up making progress on the damn meal? He just asked about dinner, and you're just Sitting here?

LOL! Recall from many moons ago: In my first marraige he was strictly a polite D/s kind of guy. In scenarios similar to the one you have described with dinner: There were some times when i was just being ornery or obstinate, where i KNEW what he wanted but played it off just to see if he would take any further initiative on his part. i guess somewhere deep within myself, i may have been frustrated at his relaxed demeanor, and this was a way of acting out what i did not yet understand about what i needed from within myself, or from him.

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 29

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 11:24:43 AM

mountainpet

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Joined: 6/24/2005
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Body language varies a lot from person to person- of course, written language does too, as we see from many of the debates here. When conversing with people who don't know me, I am often misunderstood by people who are trying to interpret my body language without knowing what language my body speaks.

(in reply to raiken)

Post #: 30

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 11:57:37 AM

raiken

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Joined: 10/18/2005
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Another thing that comes to mind is those who are hard of hearing and how their minds play tricks on them, causing them to speak louder than what may be considered to be a normal tone.

My dad was hard of hearing in his left ear. i can recall several instances of how i would lean over to whisper something discreetly to him, forgetting that important fact. Only to hear this loud "HUH!" "What did you say?" "Speak up girl, i can't hear you" cutting through the low silent hum of the crowd....ugh...moments of embarrassment helped me to remember quite quickly as i grew...lol My mom would get so embarrassed when he did this to her, she would literally turn a cute shade of rosey pink! lol

(in reply to mountainpet)

Post #: 31

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 12:34:28 PM

amayos

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Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I took a voice class awhile back (for voice-over commercials) and the very first thing they taught us was what is communicated by one's tone and inflection.

When someone asks your name, how do you answer? Most will say, "Ann Jones?" with that tilt up at the end (Ann Jones being a fictionary name here). However, that communicates uncertainty. The instructor replied by saying, "Are you asking me? Are you not even sure what your name is?" Confidence is expressed by stating your name as a statement - "Ann Jones." The tone drops a bit at the end of the last name. The same applies with most questions about yourself.

A subtle and sometimes overlooked law of communication, indeed. Anyone who has served me will attest to the importance of how something is said.

Of course, the general idea applies to body language and facial expressions, too. How many are capable of surreptitiously changing the social atmosphere of a room, or have witnessed others do it with gestures that are not immediately discernable?

Stephen King's reference to The Subaudible in his novel, The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, is something I sometimes think about in this context. It is an influential force that defines behavior in the world; the ignored but still present whir of the refrigerator, or perhaps the lingering tentacle of our past which is always there, somewhere in our collective thoughts and influencing us in unseen, unheard ways. As dominant and submissive creatures, I feel it is wise to understand this force—whatever you wish to call it.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 32

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 2:33:10 PM

marieToo

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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

The same words stated can often only be made distinct in the manner we say it.

Two Simple Phrases.

"Please get me a drink!"

"Please get me a drink?"

Please step away from the question mark.   A request is a request. A question is a question.   Its not that I dont love your sexy dangling question mark, or anything like that. But its simply not needed and, actually quite misplaced. If that statement is read correctly, as its typed, it would read like you were repeating something someone said, as if to question it.

I said to her, please get me a drink.

She then said, NO! please get me a drink.

Surprised,  I responded by saying.... Please get you a drink?

Now...If you said....Would you mind getting me a drink?   That would need the question mark.

Commas I cant tell you jack diddly about. But the question mark has to go!! Trust me!

And no, I didnt miss your great point. Yes tone is important. Its everything. My tone right now is 'giggly'.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 33

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 4:31:50 PM

subsa

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Joined: 8/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

The same words stated can often only be made distinct in the manner we say it.

Two Simple Phrases.

"Please get me a drink!"

"Please get me a drink?"

In writing we denote the difference by the "exclamation mark" and "question mark". However, in speech it is only our voice that will make a distinction.

The first phrase is a command or instruction. What are the manners of speech that will denote this as a command to you. Is there certain manners that are more positive or effective for you? Is there some that you just don't appreciate? What other comments do you have?

The second phrase is a request. What are the manners of speech that will denote this as a request to you? Is there certain manners that are more postive or effective for you? Is there some that you jut don't appreciate or acknowledge? What other comments do you have?

Note... I appreciate that the relationship you have will affect how you interpret the phrase. So instead of comparing it to other relationships, Consider the phrases to be stated by your primary or significant partner(s).

finally.... is there any other comments to add with regards to the subtlies of speech?

personally, i respond best to the statement "please, get me a drink". to me, this shows civility and culture. you said to assume the voice speaking was my significant other (dominant). so if he said "get me a drink" of course i would but i would, but i would wonder what was bothering him and ask if i could help in some way. if someone other than HE said "get me a drink" i'd probably tell them to kiss my ass! conversely, if Master asked "get me a drink?" again , i would, but at a later time (during one of our many status of the lifestyle discussions) i might remind him that he was falling back into old habits.
there is nothing undomlike in using the polite words of our culture like please and thank you.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 34

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 6:49:04 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mountainpet

This is mostly an education and literacy issue. When e-mail and text messages were first invented, they were praised as a means to communicate in words and ideas, rather than stage gestures and histeronics. Body language, facial expressions and gestured can be used to mislead, just as written words can. It all comes down to what you are best at- words or gestures.

That is an interesting post and gives me something to think about.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to mountainpet)

Post #: 35

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 6:50:22 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

The same words stated can often only be made distinct in the manner we say it.

Two Simple Phrases.

"Please get me a drink!"

"Please get me a drink?"

Please step away from the question mark.   A request is a request. A question is a question.   Its not that I dont love your sexy dangling question mark, or anything like that. But its simply not needed and, actually quite misplaced. If that statement is read correctly, as its typed, it would read like you were repeating something someone said, as if to question it.

I said to her, please get me a drink.

She then said, NO! please get me a drink.

Surprised,  I responded by saying.... Please get you a drink?

Now...If you said....Would you mind getting me a drink?   That would need the question mark.

Commas I cant tell you jack diddly about. But the question mark has to go!! Trust me!

And no, I didnt miss your great point. Yes tone is important. Its everything. My tone right now is 'giggly'.

LOL, spot on.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 36

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/8/2006 7:20:48 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subsa

personally, i respond best to the statement "please, get me a drink". to me, this shows civility and culture. you said to assume the voice speaking was my significant other (dominant). so if he said "get me a drink" of course i would but i would, but i would wonder what was bothering him and ask if i could help in some way. if someone other than HE said "get me a drink" i'd probably tell them to kiss my ass!

Yes, but would you say "please, kiss my ass" ???? or just...'kiss my ass'?

hee hee

(in reply to subsa)

Post #: 37

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/9/2006 3:27:09 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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Joined: 10/1/2005
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This is an interesting thread..especially since recently I have been informed that even when I use the words "may I please......(fill in here)..I have been told that it sounds as if I am demanding rather than requesting.Am actually still trying to figure out the correct nuance to give it so that it comes out correctly..sheesh!always thought I was fairly intelligient, but now I am stumped by tonal nuances..go figure..lol...Tempting

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 38

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/9/2006 3:51:48 PM

sublizzie

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Joined: 5/26/2004
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Very interesting thread. There are a number of nuances that can come into play here.

1) Is this a 24/7 dynamic with small unmentionables around? I would think that Dom/me barking orders at their mate would probably engender some very bad family situations with small ones thinking they can do the same to that parent. Not a good situation.

2) Is this in a vanilla situation? If with extended family who are unaware of the dynamic, a command given as a polite request, but understood between the two involved to be a command, would still be a command without non-consenting persons being aware of undertones. Helpful if one of the families, or both, are the type to go crazy at the idea of D/s in any way, shape, or form.

3) What is the personality of the Dominant making the demand/command? I know Dominants who use a very commanding voice when making commands. It is their style and submissives respond to it. There are other Dominants who use a questioning voice when stating their commands. That is *their* style and submissives respond to it as well. Just an awareness of their personalities and style differences is enough for the submissives to respond well to both.

I really think it all depends on the relationships between the Dominants and the submissives involved in the situation.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 39

RE: The Subtlies of speech - 9/9/2006 5:08:45 PM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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I would hear both forms of speech as being the same if they were used by a person I feel submissive to. But, if I'm playing, I would respond better to a clear command than a request. A request would confuse me, and I would hear the "?" as either indecision or lack of confidence and I wouldn't be able to act on it comfortably. Outside of play, a command might move me towards subspace or it might piss me off. The request works much better for me, especially if its important that I remain in neutral space.

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 40

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