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RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 12:38:50 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Indeed, every relationship - BDSM or otherwise is different.

In any relationship there should be negociations and discussions on the what ifs. I think it is atrocious that anyone can just assume that marriage comes with any assumptions. Sure, legally there is a difference with insurences and wills... but we are talking about personal choice here. If someone becomes ill in a relationship - does the other person stay? Does the relationship become different? Let me ask you this. If you're married and the husband becomes ill - does that make you any less his wife? No. So in a commited and loving BDSM relationship - or any relationship where marriage isnt there, you are still their partner or submissive or bottom or dominant . It has absolutely nothing to do with the dynamic - and has everything to do with the people involved.

If you do not feel protected in a relationship - and need a collar or a marriage certificate to 'feel' any sort of protection, then you should take a good long hard look at your relationship and see why you need a symbol or a piece of paper to feel 'safe'.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 21

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 12:57:26 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Every BDSM relationship has different foundations and different parameters as negotiated before the people involve embark upon their roles within the relationship. With wedding vows there are certain assumptions about the people involved and their role should someone take ill, in my experience it is best if parties agree to the terms of what they are to each other instead of making assumptions about their dynamic. I do not think that any relationship (BDSM or otherwise) is inherently more commited or less committed than another. If you got this perception from my OP, it was not intended to sound this way, but I believe all people should discuss these things with their loved ones, not just BDSM couples.

I cannot assume what I am to someone, and I cannot assume someone will take care of me should something happen, therefore a clearly defined course of action can help. If my partner would rather I rely on my decendents or sibblings to take care of me if something should happen, I want to know that is how they feel so I can let others know how I feel about such things. I would assume a dominant would feel the same about putting his future in my hands instead of relying in close friends or family to do such things. Not all Ds relationships are lifetime commitments, although many are.

Personally I would want the marriage contract along with the collar to protect each other in the future if it were that commited of a relationship. Not everyone can do this because they are poly for example...

Julia, you make some good points here too.
Some people I guess are just looking for a "live-in lover" or to "play". It wouldn't be practicable in that type of situation I guess to have contracts, or agreements much less even be thinking of marriage.
I (am) looking for a LTR and a Collared slave and at (that) point would be looking to be married as another way of "Totally Owning" my slave.
And of course I would want her to be totally protected financially in the event of my demise, i.e. to remain living in our house, to get my pension, benefits, insurance etc.
Marriage really does give a woman a lot of protections and financial benefits over those other type of live-in relationships and makes it easier by far to put things in her name (legally) and to have other types of arrangements.
If I die while single my nice fat V.A. pension dies with me.
If I'm married my surviving spouse will get it.
Also if I get married my V.A. pension will go up by about $200 per month! So it's a win/win for me and a sub.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 22

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 1:19:25 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I did not want to highjack pqwinny's thread about OCD, because that specific topic is very important. I had been thinking about the question of how couples decide what agreements they have when it comes to Ds and the future, when things go wrong. With marriage you make a vow to stay with the person through sickness and in health, for richer and for poorer, that is just part of the deal. In Ds many of us do not make a legal commitment with vows like these. Do you talk about this when you are beginning to form a new relationship with someone?

I have read other threads about if a submissive becomes to sick to serve, but I have not read any about the reverse. Have you discussed this with your partner?

Wonderful question. Thank you for posting it. I believe this is very important and don't feel these things should be left until some catastrophe occurs. This goes part and partial in my belief about making an informed decision. Both the dominant and submissive need to be keenly aware of what they are taking on. This includes responsibilities in and outside of the relationship, health care and financial issues, even familial ties that could become an important matter down the road. Sometimes we get so caught up in finding someone we neglect to remember that when we are involved we are accepting responsibility for many things associated with them.

I typically have these things in mind when I'm speaking with someone of interest. I consider their lifestyle and where they are at present. This has allowed me to make prudent decisions that were honest yet opposite of what the other party may have wished. I think there should be a clear understanding and written breakdown concerning finances, health care, career, extra curricular activities and interests, retirement, and even the possible dissolution of the union. Being prepared in advance allows you to focus on the issue at hand should it arise, rather than scrambling about in attempt to put something in place.

I should add that in my case it is is very probable that I would wed my owner. So some things would be resolved by a legal union. However, the other aspects are just as important and should be negotiated well in advance.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 23

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 2:10:15 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

I think it is atrocious that anyone can just assume that marriage comes with any assumptions.

I guess I am doing something atrocious, because I was raised that marriage comes with certain expectations, such as the wedding vows entail. I am old fashioned, true, and my exhubby didn't live up to his end, true... I guess this is an atrocity on my part to believe that marriage comes with certain expectations.. old fashioned that I am.

To me a marriage is more than a piece of paper, your interpretation differs, as do others, that is cool with me.

A collar is a deep abiding commitment in my eyes, but it is not necessarily the same commitment as marriage to me, others will differ.

I have stated that I would not leave a commitment due to illness, others will differ

I do not know what your point is other than you do not agree with my views, which is cool with me, I do not expect you to.

Peace

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 24

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 2:28:22 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

Every BDSM relationship has different foundations and different parameters as negotiated before the people involve embark upon their roles within the relationship

That may be true for some people. But not everyone negotiates every single part of their relationship. Personally, I like a relationship to be fluid, changing, surprising. I would not want every thing laid out before the relationship began.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 25

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 2:47:22 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

We deal with things on a year by year basis if we can.

I can understand this, Tammy Jo,

I've never been one to borrow trouble from the future. I don't think one can properly prepare for a future that can so rapidly change. Why spend hours of today dealing with a tomorrow that may never come? We have no way of knowing how the world will even look 10 years from now...How can one really plan for it?

I think knowing that you share values and morals around such things goes a long away to ensure peace of mind. (For me, anyway...) The details have to be dealt with as they come...

I think in the process of truly getting to know someone deeply you should share such things as how you view medical intervention, and such stuff. But to sit down and plan out for all difficult contigencies seems to me to take some joy out of living.

I know not everyone sees it that way, but for me it's part of trusting The Universe.

(Anytime I plan something in careful detail, seems The Universe takes delight in mucking with my plans anyway! LOL)

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 26

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 3:02:18 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

julia -

quote:

I guess I am doing something atrocious, because I was raised that marriage comes with certain expectations, such as the wedding vows entail. I am old fashioned, true, and my exhubby didn't live up to his end, true... I guess this is an atrocity on my part to believe that marriage comes with certain expectations.. old fashioned that I am.

Yes I used the word atrocious... because to me it is. It is my truth - to me. If that offends you that I am being honest, not my responsibility. The atrocity is not that marriage comes with certain expectations - its that only marriage comes with expectation and that is what concerned me about your statement. 'In sickness and in health' isnt just a marriage vow - it is an ethic, and whether I was married or not to a man who was my dominant - that is an integral part of my submission. Being married doesnt make it more important nor is it more of an expectation because one is married. Its all part of an intense, loving and fulilling relationship.

quote:

To me a marriage is more than a piece of paper, your interpretation differs, as do others, that is cool with me.

Marriage is a religious commitment. It is a spiritual commitment. It is a personal one. Its a legal one. Take all four if you want... take just a couple ... or just choose one... even choose your own. Marriage is more than a piece of paper... yet a piece of paper does not a marriage make.

quote:

A collar is a deep abiding commitment in my eyes, but it is not necessarily the same commitment as marriage to me, others will differ.

A collar is whatever one wants it to be. Yet it does not a submissive make.

quote:

I have stated that I would not leave a commitment due to illness, others will differ

Of course. But that happens in a marriage, or not. Being married doesnt leave you with the expectation of commiting to stay for some people.

quote:

I do not know what your point is other than you do not agree with my views, which is cool with me, I do not expect you to.

I dont agree, correct. But that doesnt make you wrong - just means we dont agree.

I prefere to communicate with someone and offer another side - even if we dont agree and if I believe you are intelligent enough to hold a discussion I will attempt to hold it. Erin (and I know she will not mind me mentioning her in this) is a classic example of someone I agree to disagree with, yet she and I will talk over and over on a thread and we love each other for it. People dont have to respond, and often they don't. Thats your choice. However, some people will disagree with you, julia - you posted an OP and further postings, expect all different types of responses. The 'whole point' is that I dont agree that a marriage is some unique entity that comes with expectations. You begin a relationship, a deep, commited one... that has the same expectations. To love each other deeply, to admire each other... to live together happily until you die. To look after each other, through the bad and the good. That isnt just something unique to a marriage. Thats the expectations of any long term commited and serious, stable relationship - BDSM, 'vanilla', gay, poly, pansexual - the whole kitandkaboodle.

Your statement was -

quote:

Personally I would want the marriage contract along with the collar to protect each other in the future if it were that commited of a relationship. Not everyone can do this because they are poly for example...

Apart from maybe legal duties, which can be sorted out with any good lawer, insurences etc anyway... why would a marriage protect you any more than not having one? If you have to get married to feel protected, then all I am suggesting is that you ask yourself why you don't already feel protected within the relationship.

Because being married doesnt protect you any more - not in the modern world - especially from people leaving you because you may fall sick.

Peace and Rapture.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 27

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 3:17:06 PM

Tikkiee

Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline

Hmm, when Chris and I first began our relationship, it was with the knowledge that we BOTH knew it was not going to last long term. We were both looking for something different, and neither of us was willing to settle for less than that. However, in the years that followed, we made the decision to keep our relationship going until the time came that either of us found what we wanted.
In the time that we were together, we bought a house together. It had, and stil does, have both our names on it. Though we are no longer together, we still both live in the same house. When he found the girl that he was looking for,we sat down and discussed how we wanted to proceed. Neither of us were comfortable leaving

, so we decided that we would both stay at the house. It's a good arrangement. I am in the city 90% of the time, and when I am at the house, he's working. We split the bills, etc, etc.

Both of us also have life insurance policiies. Chris is named on mine, and both his slave and I are named on his. In two years, if the relationship with his girl sustains, I will be removed from his policy and she will be the only name on it.
Chris also has final say in all health issues relating to me, should anything happen that I could not make decisions for myself.
For Chris, both his father and I have legal standing regarding health issues, with the understanding that his father has final say ( this is the agreement that is between Chris, his father and I )

Now, were I to begin a relationship with someone I seriously doubt that I would change anything that I have already in place. I have certain reasons why ( of which I am not going to go into ). That's not to say that it can not happen, I just don't see it ever being so.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 28

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 3:45:08 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

You don't just abandon someone just because they get sick!
That's heartless!

I know this sounds like a pretty safe statement to make but life is not always black and white.

Say a dominant friend relocates his sub from the states to live with him in Canada. They enter a M/s relationship, and all goes well at first. Then her health begins to fail, badly. Serious health issues force her to be be moved back to the states to get health care. Because of the differing health systems, and immigration, it becomes unlikely that she will ever be able to move back to Canada.

Is it fair to expect him to continue their M/s relationship? He collared her with the idea of having a live-in M/s relationship; should he now be forced to continue a sex-less, play-less, long-distance relationship?

He may be an honourable man but perhaps he has a right to end their agreement?

Not everything is simple. We all have needs that must be met if we are to live a happy life. Would it be heartless of him to end the agreement, continue to support her as a friend, and move on with his life?

Not all things can be predicted, nor are there always simple answers.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 29

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 4:19:23 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Im not offended, why would I be?

Peace

As for the rest, my relationship is not there yet, and if it does get to that point I doubt I would state the specifics of our situation...

Again, personal choices, some people may have an atrocious wordview about what they expect from their personal relationships in your eyes, it is no skin off my nose you feel this way.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/24/2006 4:21:48 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 30

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 4:24:27 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Tikkiee, your situation shows such maturity and respect for each other, how wonderful

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Tikkiee)

Post #: 31

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 4:28:15 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Im not offended, why would I be?

Peace

As for the rest, my relationship is not there yet, and if it does get to that point I doubt I would state the specifics of our situation...

Again, personal choices, some people may have an atrocious wordview about what they expect from their personal relationships in your eyes, it is no skin off my nose you feel this way.

Well, my usage of the word atrocious obviously sparked something - else you wouldnt be repeating it over and over to try and justify your discomfort.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 32

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 4:37:10 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

It didn't spark offense I assure you, and I am quote certain that would not be your intent, would it?...smiles!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 33

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 6:55:24 PM

Tikkiee

Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Tikkiee, your situation shows such maturity and respect for each other, how wonderful

Why thankyou kindly Julia

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 34

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 7:55:10 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Julia, there's lots of people in this lifestyle who are traditional and conservative like you.
I consider myself to be one of them.
It's the responsable thing to do to want to take care of a partner if something should happen to you. And if nothing happens to you for a while too.

(in reply to Tikkiee)

Post #: 35

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 7:56:36 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Erin (and I know she will not mind me mentioning her in this) is a classic example of someone I agree to disagree with, yet she and I will talk over and over on a thread and we love each other for it.

Don't mind a bit. I think that you and I actually agree on about as many things as we disagree on....but I always like to discuss things with you regardless. On this one I am in agreement....I am not one to put a lot of weight into that piece of paper when it comes to relationships. I don't feel any more secure having it.

As for planning for future disasters, illnesses or tragedies....none of us can really ever be fully prepared....or ever really know how we will meet those kinds of demands. I think it's important to discuss the options as much as one possibly can...but in the end it is going to boil down to making a decision that is influenced by the impact of the particular situation.

I have had to come face to face and deal with crisis and illness. All of the talking in the world before the fact could never have prepared me for the reality. I think that something within me took over, at least at first....kind of like functioning on auto pilot. If I had to think about where I was going to pull the strength and energy from I surely would have failed. But I lived one moment at a time and met the needs as they came. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do....and somehow from somewhere....you find the strength.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 36

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 8:33:15 PM

gardenbluebird

Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline

My husband and former master has been ill for 10 of our 11 years of marriage. It has been (and will continue to be) a long slow decline until he dies. For both people in such a relationship it is a brutal existance. i have been very close to leaving a number of times because sometimes it is almost unbearable.

BDSM, sex, and all form of physical intimacy are gone for good and they have been for many years. This was definately not what i had in mind when i got married. When "all the time" is married to "never" the result is pure misery. Then add in responsiblity for family income, housework, caregiving (including help with bathing and meals) and you can just imagine what it does to a person. Plus a dominant with out of control health and pain issues is not an easy person to live with- think cranky control freak. He couldn't control his own issues, so he tried to control everything else to the extreme.

A few years ago i hit the wall and had a long series of discussions with my husband. i was fat, depressed, and getting dizzy spells. i was in a very bad place. The result was that i can seek relationships outside the marriage and i live my life much more independently of him. We live in the same house, co-parent the kids (mine that he adopted), and i think of him now as family - no longer as a husband.

i never could have imagined such a life, but here it is. Something to think about. It happened to me. It can happen to anyone.

As far as judging anyone who leaves when a partner gets ill. i just don't go there. i have walked more than a mile in those moccasins. i understand why some people just can't cope.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 37

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:47:35 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

It sounds as if you took the commitment aspect beyond Ds or husband/wife.. which to me shows a lot of commitment. I certainly could not judge you.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to gardenbluebird)

Post #: 38

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