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Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 8:58:49 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I did not want to highjack pqwinny's thread about OCD, because that specific topic is very important. I had been thinking about the question of how couples decide what agreements they have when it comes to Ds and the future, when things go wrong. With marriage you make a vow to stay with the person through sickness and in health, for richer and for poorer, that is just part of the deal. In Ds many of us do not make a legal commitment with vows like these. Do you talk about this when you are beginning to form a new relationship with someone?

Do you want an agreement that states that if one becomes infirm the other will care for them or see to their care? What if the illness is so profound as to negate the dynamic, by this I mean brain injury, or an illness like Alzheimer’s, if someone cannot function as a consenting adult, can you still view them as your submissive or dominant? I have read other threads about if a submissive becomes to sick to serve, but I have not read any about the reverse. Have you discussed this with your partner?

Just wanted to know if others have thought about these issues

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Post #: 1

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:02:50 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Good topic, julia. No, I didn't ever discuss such topics with folks I was very involved with, usually - and we can see where that got me (15 years in a sexless marriage, long relationships w/people who had no intention of becoming "more serious", etc.). So, I think if you are serious with someone, it might not be a bad idea. But, I'd keep the general tone light, if possible (but that's just me). If they are up for talking about it, and want to, maybe see an attorney about "health-care power of attorney" (they can be that for you, and vice-versa, etc), if you should become incapacitated.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/24/2006 9:04:52 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 2

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:05:35 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have read other threads about if a submissive becomes to sick to serve, but I have not read any about the reverse. Have you discussed this with your partner?

Just wanted to know if others have thought about these issues

Well it has been discussed here and I posted links to those threads in the other thread started yesterday.

Unfortunately, most people don't make this sort of discussion as they should. Heck most people (specially when getting into a LDR) barely even work through the first 2 or 3 years and how to deal with THAT trouble.

You'd think this would be a good thing- there's no need to get into all that serious stuff if you're just dating someone and discovering IF you want to spend your life with them.

Except that people skip it and decide they want the commitment without going through these issues first. So they have a rude awakening when it happens. And yeah, I'm TOTALLY guilty of this myself in the past.

But say you've done the groundwork (more than a weeks chat online ahem) and you want to make it work in the long term. Then you need to discuss things- financial plans, retirement plans, career plans, family plans, travel plans, just get it out there and make sure you are compatible, know where everyone stands on the issue and, eventually, make official statements so that the other person will be able to make decisions if/when necessary.

It's also important to realize that making promises from one perspective is not the same as having to live with it. Having doubts about yourself, realizing that a particular change in the other person may simply be beyond your abilities is honest and better than repression.

PS I'll add that I've totally learned from my mistakes here and my live-in partners and I are completely open on this, we discuss our financial plans on a regular basis, we know where everyone stands on family issues, commitment plans, career paths and more. If you make it simply a regular thing to bring up, it doesn't become a "Big Issue."

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 8/24/2006 9:07:02 AM >

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 3

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:05:58 AM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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I honestly don't think people can really know how they will hold up in an extreme situation, or how much they can handle, until they are in it. One might think he/she can be there all the way - and it is truly a noble thought. But often times one finds the ability to endure is way beyond his/her capabilities.

Having said that, the only agreement between Master and I about our future and his ownership of me in that future, is that as long as I continue to be pleasing to him, he will own me. To him, the ability to please begins with the mind, not the body. Good question about the inability to function as a consenting adult. I would imagine he would continue to own me, but use me differently. Interesting question....

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 4

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:07:05 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

We have already talked about wishes we have concerning when we want the "plug pulled"...smiles. I think that is is a really good idea to have these conversations while people are healthy (if possible). It seems like a long ways off at present, but shit happens. In your case susan, there can be limits to what one endures when one party has no desire to make themselves better, and it is within their control...smiles

BTW, I sent you an email a couple of days ago on the other side, I just wanted you to read it while it is still relevant.. it was to thank you, no need to respond if you are busy.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 5

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:12:07 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I agree that people do not know how they will hold up, and that was why I mentioned "seeing to someone's care".. I am assuming someone is at least honorable enough to find a nice residential facility to pack you off to where you will not be abused...and maybe visit once every blue moon...if they agreed to that is.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 6

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:25:17 AM

xGoddessx

Posts: 81
Status: offline

Very good question.

I guess I am one to try and ignore unpleasant thoughts sometimes, in the hope that I won't ever have to deal with them.

I haven't thought about this very much, but I admit you have me thinking about it now. I could say, that if I loved them, it would matter if they could be Dominant anymore, that I could still be happy and fulfilled in our relationship. I am sure that is more the PC answer that a lot will give.

I can't say that though, not really. I don't know if any of us can say what will we do for sure before the situation actually happens. I am sure I hope to be, or that I could stick with that person no matter what. That would of course, be my full intention.

I have left lovers and even those I have loved, in order to live as a submissive person. Would that be different if the person I were with was Dominant, yet just couldn't act upon it? I can't answer that, so I won't try.

If I could give my perfect answer and the one I would hope I would do, it would be I hope that our bond and our trust is so strong, that I would not need the physical or emotional Domination anymore, and just being in their presence would take care of any needs I have.

The reality, I will address this with my Daddy and we can discuss more what we both expect. Thank you for giving me this to think about. I guess, I probably have to some extent, but more as a passing thought than one I want to focus on. My Daddy is in the military and on active duty right now, he is shot at and has been shot. I guess because it is moreso something that could happen, it's much easier or even hopeful that I can keep it all blocked out.

~G~

_____________________________

Still SlaveAkasha...but needing to just be me...if that makes sense.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:27:31 AM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I agree that people do not know how they will hold up, and that was why I mentioned "seeing to someone's care".. I am assuming someone is at least honorable enough to find a nice residential facility to pack you off to where you will not be abused...and maybe visit once every blue moon...if they agreed to that is.

I did not intend to imply something as horrible as this.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 8

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:32:52 AM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

I cant speak for others because everyone would react different in the same situation. For me my Master is not just someone who dominates me. He is my lover, soulmate and best friend. Being a critical care nurse I think I may see things differently. If he became mentally incapacitated I would have to continue to support him and deal with the crisises as they come. If it came to a point where I could not handle things anymore then I would have to regroup and make a decision. Neither one of us have discussed long term illnesses and such and what would happen. So I can only speak for myself.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 9

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:38:27 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I agree that people do not know how they will hold up, and that was why I mentioned "seeing to someone's care".. I am assuming someone is at least honorable enough to find a nice residential facility to pack you off to where you will not be abused...and maybe visit once every blue moon...if they agreed to that is.

I did not intend to imply something as horrible as this.

Hey, sometimes people are just too far gone to be cared for at home.. this is a reality. It wasn't directed at you sweetie, it was stating that it is often beyond our capacity to care for people. There is no shame in admitting this either...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 10

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:39:48 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I agree that people do not know how they will hold up, and that was why I mentioned "seeing to someone's care".. I am assuming someone is at least honorable enough to find a nice residential facility to pack you off to where you will not be abused...and maybe visit once every blue moon...if they agreed to that is.

I did not intend to imply something as horrible as this.

Hey, sometimes people are just too far gone to be cared for at home.. this is a reality. It wasn't directed at you sweetie, it was stating that it is often beyond our capacity to care for people. There is no shame in admitting this either...smiles

Having just cared for my ill father, I would certainly not pack someone off. Perhaps I was not prepared for that kind of sarcasm.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 11

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 9:43:51 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I did not mean it that way, it was not a good choice of words, and I apologize

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 12

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 10:00:39 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I did not want to highjack pqwinny's thread about OCD, because that specific topic is very important. I had been thinking about the question of how couples decide what agreements they have when it comes to Ds and the future, when things go wrong. With marriage you make a vow to stay with the person through sickness and in health, for richer and for poorer, that is just part of the deal. In Ds many of us do not make a legal commitment with vows like these. Do you talk about this when you are beginning to form a new relationship with someone?

I'm twice divorced. Those vows are only as real and as binding as you wish them to be, legal or not. In my Manual, I talk about loyalty to the relationship from both sides. However, I know that there are instances, such as illness, where needs WILL get overlooked. At that point, we need to discuss how to work through that...by either a separation or by bringing in another person.

quote:

Do you want an agreement that states that if one becomes infirm the other will care for them or see to their care? What if the illness is so profound as to negate the dynamic, by this I mean brain injury, or an illness like Alzheimer’s, if someone cannot function as a consenting adult, can you still view them as your submissive or dominant? I have read other threads about if a submissive becomes to sick to serve, but I have not read any about the reverse. Have you discussed this with your partner?

Just wanted to know if others have thought about these issues

You referenced a forum topic about the Dominant being too sick to be able to be Dominant...so you have read about it. And, believe me, there have been many, many cases of this in the gay community...we lost a huge portion of a generation to AIDS.

If your husband became permanently impotent, so that the sex you relished as a sacred right in the marriage bed was gone...would you still feel that he was your husband? Whether or not a person will stay in a relationship with another who become devastatingly ill is really dependent on the people involved...just like in vanilla relationships.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 13

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 10:01:46 AM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

Slave and I have agreed that we keep going until one of us breaks a hip.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 14

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 10:26:01 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

We deal with things on a year by year basis if we can.

Unfortunately with my job future uncertain (this it is post PhD and the early job searches) it is difficult to say if we will be here where we currently are or somewhere else a year from now. We are discussing joint ownership of the next house.

No, we are sort of bad, because we really don't discuss Fox's health issues beyond our family therapy and taking care of him when he is sick.

To be completely honest, part of me is withholding myself still from him until he does actually move with us. That will show he has fully become part of my household and is not just here because we happen to be where he was/is currently. Fox is also very uncomfortable talking very far ahead about the future -- thus the family therapy in part to help us work through these very complex issues in a poly household.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 15

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 11:07:58 AM

SusanofO

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julia: Thanks for the e-mail. I wil go read it.

Upate: julia, I read your e-mail, and responded to it.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/24/2006 11:17:56 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 16

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 12:10:30 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

julia -

I think that these are issues that are not discussed anywhere near enough and should be.

My concern is your interpretation of a BDSM relationship being somehow less important than a non BDSM one.

Just because a couple, or dynamic doesnt get married - does not mean they have any less ethics - and thats how your post could be interpreted.

Being in a BDSM relationship is no different to any relationship that is set on a firm foundation of commitment. If my dominant becomes sick - that doesn't make him any less of a person. No contract is broken. He isn't any less dominant, I am not any less submissive. I serve him to my complete ability. I see no other reason to serve or submit to him if I felt any different.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 12:29:22 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Every BDSM relationship has different foundations and different parameters as negotiated before the people involve embark upon their roles within the relationship. With wedding vows there are certain assumptions about the people involved and their role should someone take ill, in my experience it is best if parties agree to the terms of what they are to each other instead of making assumptions about their dynamic. I do not think that any relationship (BDSM or otherwise) is inherently more commited or less committed than another. If you got this perception from my OP, it was not intended to sound this way, but I believe all people should discuss these things with their loved ones, not just BDSM couples.

I cannot assume what I am to someone, and I cannot assume someone will take care of me should something happen, therefore a clearly defined course of action can help. If my partner would rather I rely on my decendents or sibblings to take care of me if something should happen, I want to know that is how they feel so I can let others know how I feel about such things. I would assume a dominant would feel the same about putting his future in my hands instead of relying in close friends or family to do such things. Not all Ds relationships are lifetime commitments, although many are.

Personally I would want the marriage contract along with the collar to protect each other in the future if it were that commited of a relationship. Not everyone can do this because they are poly for example...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 18

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 12:33:28 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I did not want to highjack pqwinny's thread about OCD, because that specific topic is very important. I had been thinking about the question of how couples decide what agreements they have when it comes to Ds and the future, when things go wrong. With marriage you make a vow to stay with the person through sickness and in health, for richer and for poorer, that is just part of the deal. In Ds many of us do not make a legal commitment with vows like these. Do you talk about this when you are beginning to form a new relationship with someone?

Do you want an agreement that states that if one becomes infirm the other will care for them or see to their care? What if the illness is so profound as to negate the dynamic, by this I mean brain injury, or an illness like Alzheimer’s, if someone cannot function as a consenting adult, can you still view them as your submissive or dominant? I have read other threads about if a submissive becomes to sick to serve, but I have not read any about the reverse. Have you discussed this with your partner?

Just wanted to know if others have thought about these issues

I can't say that we've taken vows or made promises about what happens if either of us get ill, but we have talked in general terms about if we were brain dead what our wishes would be and general issues of finances/property/what to do with the body if either of us died. This summer my owner bought a will maker software and this thread just reminds me that we really should get it done.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 19

RE: Future Crisis and Ds, Negotiating The Future - 8/24/2006 12:38:44 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Julia, good topic, thanks.
Yes I think these things should be discussed between two people once they decide to get together in a relationship.
I already have a will and healthcare power of attorney drawn up.
But, if I Collared a slave and we decided to become married they'd all have to be changed of course.
To me anyway, a Collar is permanent and if I'm willing to Collar a sub to become my Owned slave I would be willing to consider marriage at that point if she was also thinking along those lines.
Tammyjo, I think that's a good idea about joint ownership in a house!
If two people are going to have a LTR together and become married it may be allright to live in one or the other's home for a while but they really should consider buying a home "together" that would be "theirs" and not one or the other's.
A fresh start is always a nice and fun thing to do anyway.
And if my partner got sick or incapacitated in any way of course I'd take care of her!
You don't just abandon someone just because they get sick!
That's heartless!

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 20

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