RE: Little by little, attempts to control

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/13/2006 12:29:47 PM

LadyEllen

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I cant believe the anti-priest rhetoric here - surely a guy in a frock wearing a penis shaped hat, carrying a stick and issuing directions to kneel should be welcome here?

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/13/2006 1:31:25 PM

MmakeMme

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If religion was an intellectually considered and personal choice, one would expect to find a scattering of various religions throughout the world, giving a speckled effect. Instead one finds great monolithic blocks of religion which suggests that choice of religion is more to do with socialisation. Even where there is a scattering of religion it is more to do with emigration than people giving intellectual consideration to their choice of religion. If what you suggest is true, then there wouldn't be an opportunity for neocons to shout about a clash of cultures/religions.

I'm not suggesting anything. I am SAYING that religion is a personal choice. One can choose to believe it or disbelieve it - any of it or all of it. One can choose to study different religions, or choose to not study any of them. If one wishes to remain in one's own regionalized bloc religion, that's his wish. It is far easier to stay with what you know than to put forth any real effort if "what you know" is comfortable and in line with.

There are speckles of religion everywhere. There are majorities of religions in every country ... but there are also majorities of everything in every country, not just in religion.

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/13/2006 5:03:00 PM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I cant believe the anti-priest rhetoric here - surely a guy in a frock wearing a penis shaped hat, carrying a stick and issuing directions to kneel should be welcome here?

       Thank You LadyEllen, you gave me a good belly laugh with this one.

      That the religious are trying to 'control' society is merely one side of the coin. People are acting like this is happening in some sort of social vacuum instead of recognizing it as reactive behaviors to social changes more in step with their own views.

      Consider how far we have come in the last twenty years in the arena of homosexuality. I remember a discussion in a speech class about whether or not Boy George was gay. Could it have been more obvious? And yet he had to play coy, asked if he was bi-sexual, he made some stupid remark about having to buy sex if he wanted it. Today we are debating gay marriage (a jobs program for divorce lawyers if ever there was one!).

      Yes, the religious fanatics would like to tell us all how to live. Big whoop. We also have extremists who want to tell us what to eat, drive, think, say and do with our money. I see ALL those focused on controlling my life as antagonists, not just the ones with a right-wing or religious flavor.

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/13/2006 11:49:46 PM

Archer

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Well lets not leave the secularists out of the reducing our personal freedoms some of them do as much of it as anyone else they simply choose different areas they want to control.
Gun Control
Property rights (including when where how and with what you can defend your property)
Increased taxation (right to the money we earn)
Hate crimes (punished extra for the thought behind a crime)
Excessive Land use laws ( right to do with ones land what you choose)
Wage laws (telling an employer and the employee what they can and cannot negotiate as to the value of their labor)
Healthcare (Laws telling doctors what they can charge and telling insurance companies what they must cover)

Sure there are ballance points for many of these just as there are with sexual rights, but don't fool yourself into thinking the liberals are any less interested in control, they simply want to control different things

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 12:06:11 AM

meatcleaver

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There is a difference between trying to balance the tensions between different interest groups so as to enable society to work for the benefit of all rather than the strongest and trying to control private morality that has no impact on anyone but the self.

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 10:23:20 AM

MistressLorelei

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We can't have freedom of religion when the government is implementing the religion it has chosen for us into the laws we have to abide by. Theocracy in the US... it's already here.

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 11:05:48 AM

LadyEllen

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you think you have problems? Our Parliament is stuffed with Bishops in the upper house! We've had the same thing for years - christian laws for a population which is only 5% christian going by church attendance. They've recently succumbed to the idea of including clerics of similar rank from Islam, Hinduism, Judaism etc, but the majority are of no religion at all here, unless nominal xxxxxxx counts as a religion.

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 11:12:13 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/050806WA.shtml

People say the religious folks aren't trying to meddle in things?
The things in this story point out that they are trying in small steps to completely control sexuality and our choices on reproduction.
The current political atmosphere is conducive to letting it happen.

You say it like its a new thing?

Current and past political atmospheres have always been conductive to letting it happen.

It isn't a new concept - nothing has changed... and nor will it.

Peace and Rapture

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 11:40:06 AM

LadyEllen

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I could take these christian types' views on sexual morality more seriously, were it not for the fact that so many clerics display none. Almost every year we hear of ministers involved in child abuse at the serious end of the scale, and ranging all the way to the ridiculous - like the priest who was discovered dead before the altar, wrapped in clingfilm. He had clearly been having a rare old time until he suffocated.

This could be excused as a human weakness of course, except that these ministers are blessed with the Holy Spirit on ordination that it might fill them. That they then still have weaknesses like this indicates that the Holy Spirit is either bogus or ineffective or else isnt the Holy Spirit at all - which sort of invalidates the tripartite God, then God himself, then Christ, then Christianity. Whoops!

If the religion is invalid, then the meddling of fundies in other peoples' lives is seen for what it is - fascism.
E

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 11:57:44 AM

darkinshadows

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You get child molesters in any 'organisation' or 'group'. Including BDSM... and here morality here is 'consensuality'...

You get fundementalists in everything. You get abusers in everything. Doesn't matter what is preached, or the dogma involved.

I am a christian - doesn't blind me from the fact that the OP was speaking. I don't follow an organisation, I don't follow some lay preacher. I simply follow God and answer to Him for myself. What others do is their choice. Isn't my business to judge others or condem people... and in a way that is exactly what Kedikat is doing (I know He won't mind me saying coz He is always up for a good debate)... condeming the condemers...(and yes my spelling sucks but I have a 24 hr bug and I am so not up for spell checkers tonight).

What gets me is that its mentioned as though its a new idea. Its not... since 'religions' began, people have abused it to try and scare people into making decision that suit them. And yes, there are people who fall for it everytime. I repeat the same thing over and over - its not the religion - or the country - or the Fetish or the politics or whatever fucking thing is the 'deal of the month'... its the PEOPLE who abuse their power. No more - no less.... and the fools that follow.

Peace and Rapture

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 1:02:28 PM

Kedikat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

You get child molesters in any 'organisation' or 'group'. Including BDSM... and here morality here is 'consensuality'...
You get fundementalists in everything. You get abusers in everything. Doesn't matter what is preached, or the dogma involved.

I am a christian - doesn't blind me from the fact that the OP was speaking. I don't follow an organisation, I don't follow some lay preacher. I simply follow God and answer to Him for myself. What others do is their choice. Isn't my business to judge others or condem people... and in a way that is exactly what Kedikat is doing (I know He won't mind me saying coz He is always up for a good debate)... condeming the condemers...(and yes my spelling sucks but I have a 24 hr bug and I am so not up for spell checkers tonight).
What gets me is that its mentioned as though its a new idea. Its not... since 'religions' began, people have abused it to try and scare people into making decision that suit them. And yes, there are people who fall for it everytime. I repeat the same thing over and over - its not the religion - or the country - or the Fetish or the politics or whatever fucking thing is the 'deal of the month'... its the PEOPLE who abuse their power. No more - no less.... and the fools that follow.

Peace and Rapture

I don't single out religion alone as trying to control. This particular instance of people with agendas is so under the radar, I just wanted to point it out. The separation of religion and state is there for good reason. Too many zealots are being appointed and inserted into various government areas.
Of course there are zealots of non religious ilk as well. Dangerous in their way. The extreme politically correct, the extreme militarists. In a country of over 350 million people, extremists have no place in governance and setting law and standards.
The actual discussion of the good and bad of religion is carried on in other threads. This is more about an agenda being snuck into place by our leaders.

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RE: Little by little, attempts to control - 8/14/2006 3:03:12 PM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

You get child molesters in any 'organisation' or 'group'. Including BDSM... and here morality here is 'consensuality'...
You get fundementalists in everything. You get abusers in everything. Doesn't matter what is preached, or the dogma involved.

I am a christian - doesn't blind me from the fact that the OP was speaking. I don't follow an organisation, I don't follow some lay preacher. I simply follow God and answer to Him for myself. What others do is their choice. Isn't my business to judge others or condem people... and in a way that is exactly what Kedikat is doing (I know He won't mind me saying coz He is always up for a good debate)... condeming the condemers...(and yes my spelling sucks but I have a 24 hr bug and I am so not up for spell checkers tonight).
What gets me is that its mentioned as though its a new idea. Its not... since 'religions' began, people have abused it to try and scare people into making decision that suit them. And yes, there are people who fall for it everytime. I repeat the same thing over and over - its not the religion - or the country - or the Fetish or the politics or whatever fucking thing is the 'deal of the month'... its the PEOPLE who abuse their power. No more - no less.... and the fools that follow.

Peace and Rapture

I don't single out religion alone as trying to control. This particular instance of people with agendas is so under the radar, I just wanted to point it out. The separation of religion and state is there for good reason. Too many zealots are being appointed and inserted into various government areas.
Of course there are zealots of non religious ilk as well. Dangerous in their way. The extreme politically correct, the extreme militarists. In a country of over 350 million people, extremists have no place in governance and setting law and standards.
The actual discussion of the good and bad of religion is carried on in other threads. This is more about an agenda being snuck into place by our leaders.

Oh I understand that Kedikat... but it isnt a new thing. It's just manipulation carried down through the ages by all leaders and governments. It has always been... and will always be.

Peace and Rapture

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.dark.