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I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 6:45:21 AM

ShiftedJewel

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Honestly, I’m not bitching. I’m seeking clarification. I’ve read all the threads on cuckolding sissification and such, I sort of have a handle on that… but I would really like some insight on the reasoning behind objectification and humiliation. I’ve met a lot of male sub/slaves that are really into that. I realize there are females that are into it as well, but it seems more prevalent in the males. Many times I have had to tell a male sub/slave that I am just not capable of treating another human being as less then human. I just don’t have it in me. I doubt if it’s something that I’ll ever really “get in to”… but I really would like to understand it better.

Jewel

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 6:48:57 AM

Emperor1956

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Objectification and humiliation are very different things. You need to clarify your question. Humiliation is exactly that: humiliating the submissive, by diminishing their self worth through critical statements and/or making fun of personal traits, appearance, intelligence, etc. Objectification is REMOVING the self of the submissive -- making them an object, a "thing" and not a person.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 2

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 6:53:33 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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It's not necessarily less than human- although some people are definitely into that.

It's simply "not human but object."

I will summarize the points made in my "Objectification and Humiliation Essay" which has been posted numerous times in the H&O threads already- to become a vessel of pure service, to become an unthinking object for use, to become nothing and everything that is exactly what YOU need and want right at that moment....there is a sublime acceptance and clarity which comes at that point that nothing else can match.

Like so many people say "you have to be strong in order to submit" (while obviously overgeneralized), a corollary could be said "You must understand you self in order to be able to cast it aside."

When I am object- I do not have to think, I do not have to feel, I do not have to do- I simply have to BE the object. Most submissives enjoy this to a certain extent (the whole "I love not having to actually think about life issues and master gets to choose" deal).

To be object is to be passive, being object means you can only give. It is a humbling, deeply spiritual, and often intensly hot experience for me.

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(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 3

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 6:54:50 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Objectification and humiliation are very different things. You need to clarify your question. Humiliation is exactly that: humiliating the submissive, by diminishing their self worth through critical statements and/or making fun of personal traits, appearance, intelligence, etc. Objectification is REMOVING the self of the submissive -- making them an object, a "thing" and not a person.

E.

If you read through the H&O discussions, you'll see that the definition of humiliation is a very disputed one. What you are describing here is often what most people consider degradation- not humiliation.

As well, objectification can easily be a humliating experience as well.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 4

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:18:53 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

Honestly, I’m not bitching. I’m seeking clarification. I’ve read all the threads on cuckolding sissification and such, I sort of have a handle on that… but I would really like some insight on the reasoning behind objectification and humiliation. I’ve met a lot of male sub/slaves that are really into that. I realize there are females that are into it as well, but it seems more prevalent in the males. Many times I have had to tell a male sub/slave that I am just not capable of treating another human being as less then human. I just don’t have it in me. I doubt if it’s something that I’ll ever really “get in to”… but I really would like to understand it better.

Jewel

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 5

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:21:11 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

Honestly, I’m not bitching. I’m seeking clarification. I’ve read all the threads on cuckolding sissification and such, I sort of have a handle on that… but I would really like some insight on the reasoning behind objectification and humiliation. I’ve met a lot of male sub/slaves that are really into that. I realize there are females that are into it as well, but it seems more prevalent in the males. Many times I have had to tell a male sub/slave that I am just not capable of treating another human being as less then human. I just don’t have it in me. I doubt if it’s something that I’ll ever really “get in to”… but I really would like to understand it better.

Jewel

Damnit...everything I wrote got deleted out...???? Have to come back later and try again. Sorry

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 6

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:25:01 AM

juliaoceania

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I think most female submissives (perhaps most females in general?) have some sort of objectification/humiliation fantasy at some point in their lives, or are actively desiring it on some level. Even name calling is humiliation. It may not be the same sort of humiliation, but the desire is equal in both sexes in my view, knowing the women I have known.

In me it was partially the desire to do something that I wasn't supposed to do, or that would make me "bad". It was the taboo aspect. There may have been other aspects, like not wanting responsibility for sexuality by havig someone humiliate you or degrade you. I do not much care for this anymore, but at one point these sorts of fantasies were my daily staple.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 7

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:30:47 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Objectification and humiliation are very different things. You need to clarify your question. Humiliation is exactly that: humiliating the submissive, by diminishing their self worth through critical statements and/or making fun of personal traits, appearance, intelligence, etc. Objectification is REMOVING the self of the submissive -- making them an object, a "thing" and not a person.

E.

Actually the two are closely related and objectification does not necessarily mean becoming a thing. It can mean being "used" as though you were an object. We have all heard the term "objectifying women as sex objects". In some ways it does reduce the person's humanity at that point, but they still are human.. it is the feeling for the submissive that they are reduced to their sex organs...Or they are a chair, toilet, ashtray.. either way it is still objectification.. just like spitting in a sub's face is humiliation and calling her names is humiliation.. I love a little loving objectification....smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 8

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:32:34 AM

raiken

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Joined: 10/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Objectification and humiliation are very different things. You need to clarify your question. Humiliation is exactly that: humiliating the submissive, by diminishing their self worth through critical statements and/or making fun of personal traits, appearance, intelligence, etc. Objectification is REMOVING the self of the submissive -- making them an object, a "thing" and not a person.

E.

If you read through the H&O discussions, you'll see that the definition of humiliation is a very disputed one. What you are describing here is often what most people consider degradation- not humiliation.

As well, objectification can easily be a humliating experience as well.

Yes it is a very gray area with lots of fuzzy meanings. The terms are often perceived very differently among many. For me, i can be humiliated, mildly, but i am not able to tolerate degradation, which for me is diminishing the person i am. Humiliation for me, just feels humbling, like i am being set or reminded in and of my place or social rank and position. Degradation is more assaulting to my core being. Objectification is also a misunderstood concept, and i do agree with the way LA described the experience.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 9

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:33:40 AM

Jasmyn

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Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
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"The exaggerated feeling of guilt about our own aggressive thoughts and power-hungry pleasures gives rise to a need for punishment, and thereby a readiness for suffering and aversion."

Someone, who by personality, or career, is a leader...everyone says yes sir, no sir, how many bags full sir? No one challenges him or his authority. It's a power trip, and their loathe to admit, they kind like it, it strokes their ego.

"culture forces all of us to suppress aggressive drives, and as they are suppressed, so the unconscious guilt feeling grows."

Attoning for his sinful, self centred thoughts ... by way of humilation, objectification, degredation, punishment, subservience, and asquience ...making him get on his knees, crawling across the floor to lick you boot like a dog boy, little puppy, so tiny and obscure, a nothing really, walk away, leave him to stew, come back...order him to fetch you a drink ... he's back, on his knees, make like a table ... your table can be ornate as you want it, or as simple as a cold drink on a bare back telling him he dare not spill it ... take a load off, put your feet up, the smellier the stockings the better, rub them in his face, and when he tries to pull away ...grab a handful of hair, tables don't move bitch ...*slap* ... kiss my feet! ...and when he say's 'the drink miss' ... you say... 'best you not spill it on your way down. NOW GET MOVING.

Some need the heavier domination, others a bit more lighter and fru fru ...

"[so] men involved in masochism may symbolically endanger their masculinity in order to test and fulfill themselves as men"

"Her argument suggests not that male masochism overthrows patriarchal law but that it deconstructs it."

Effectively a humilation session, helps them centre themselves ..

Articles on masochism I sourced those quotes on, the first is quite heavy going, but quite enlightening, if you can follow it, about women as machines and the future being masochism ... and the second is on Earnest Hemmingway? I think, it's late...if it's not him, can someone please correct me ;) and masochism in whatever author's macho heros.

Masochism as a Post-Phallic Mandate, google Umelec
& http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3786/is_200310/ai_n9318253/pg_9 for the last two quotes

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quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

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(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 10

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:46:40 AM

Jasmyn

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From: New Zealand
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Sorry meant to add, by way of masochism, they centre themselves .. letting go of the outside him, and like LA has eloquently put above ... there is a sublime acceptance and clarity ... that comes with been able to do that...

For it allows them to get in touch with their who they are, as a male ..not the gender that comes by virtue of having testicles instead of a womb...and vice versa for women ... allows us to get in touch with who we are, as a female ...and not the gender that comes by virtue of not having testicles ...

Ergo the male in the patriachal male competitive, aggressive, business/industry (those and sports, only aggression our cultures allow for) recognises for himself, the alter him he is becoming out there, is not who he is, does not define him as a 'male' ... he can learn to let go of aggression out there ...for aggresion is not what defines him as a man

< Message edited by Jasmyn -- 8/11/2006 7:47:49 AM >

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quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

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Post #: 11

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 8:16:50 AM

popeye1250

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I'm not much for humiliation, just never got into it much and not a lot of experience with it.
That subject is something that would have to be discussed with the individual sub first.
As for objectification, I did that a lot with my former sub.
One thing we both enjoyed very much was to use her as a "sexy decoration" that is I'd tie her over the kitchen table ankles to table legs, pillows underneith to keep her comfortable, hands tied behind her back, gagged, and a bondage hood on her, leather collar tied to table so she couldn't get up, for an hour or two.
She'd be dressed in lingerie and heels and she had a nice ass and I enjoyed looking at it.
She said it turned her on because she couldn't see when I was looking at her or for how long.
Also after a bit I'd take a leather slapper and hit her hard on the ass once every few minutes and that really turned her on as she couldn't see it comming.
And, she was in the perfect position for "ass play" and a vibrator placed in just the right position!
Also we'd play "Kitty".
She'd be dressed like a sexy kitty and rub up against me on the couch trying to get attention and I'll leave the rest to your imagination.
Also, "Pony Play" is a form of objectification like in SusanofO's thread a few weeks ago.
I have no experience in that area either but it looks very interesting and I can see that it has a lot of potential.

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 12

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 8:17:20 AM

thetammyjo

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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I don't see humilation and objectification as the same thing.

I do not do humilation play -- sorry, just can't keep a straight face when I've tried and that sort of ruins it.

But objectification? Sure! I'll tell Fox to be my footstool, my table, my whatever I want, sometimes just a pretty statue standing in the corner. He doesn't find it humilating at all -- he finds it being useful or being admired in the case of a statue.

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(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 13

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 8:58:22 AM

MaleModel

Posts: 65
Joined: 6/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

Honestly, I’m not bitching. I’m seeking clarification. I’ve read all the threads on cuckolding sissification and such, I sort of have a handle on that… but I would really like some insight on the reasoning behind objectification and humiliation. I’ve met a lot of male sub/slaves that are really into that. I realize there are females that are into it as well, but it seems more prevalent in the males. Many times I have had to tell a male sub/slave that I am just not capable of treating another human being as less then human. I just don’t have it in me. I doubt if it’s something that I’ll ever really “get in to”… but I really would like to understand it better.

Jewel

Jewel, I would make 2 points that might or might not answer your question. First, Emperor's distinction between objectification and humiliation is absolutely valid. I would never want to be with a woman who humiliated me, which I think corresponds to your idea of "treating another human being as less than human."

But objectification is my most potent kink. My Mistress/ g/f does that to me all the time....uses me for her pleasure.....shows me off dressed as she wishes to friends or to anyone.....makes playdates for me with her friends......compliments me AS IF I were simply an object for her use/pleasure/disposition. But at the end of the day, we still have great affection and mutual respect for each other. In short, for us objectification doesn't bring with it any notion of lessened self-worth.

I should note that Ms. Lauren also very much enjoys objectifying me, benefits from it, and that I of course cater to all of her whims, LOL

You're seeking the "reasoning" behind this behavior, and I have no clue......I've decided not to be introspective.....it bubbles up from inside me, and I'm grateful that I have a woman who can share this with me. Undoubtedly, it's rooted in how I was treated as a child by my parents, but C'est La Vie!

Hope this helps, MM

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 14

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 9:32:16 AM

Emperor1956

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Reply to Myself, because I'm addressing all in the thread:

I think my comment got us to where we were going, and I thank all and agree with most of the distinctions posted. That said, LA, I'm not sure there's a lot to be gained in splitting "humiliation" and "degradation", and your comment "objectification can be humiliation" is sophistry -- ANYTHING can be humiliation, if that's the twist the parties put on it. Generally, I agree with your points.

Julia, I think that you are overgeneralizing your experience to the norm.

quote:

I think most female submissives (perhaps most females in general?) have some sort of objectification/humiliation fantasy at some point in their lives, or are actively desiring it on some level.

Actually, in my experience it is the reverse, and few female subs, and fewer women, have this component in their fantasy lives (or perhaps they just haven't shared it with Me?). As a general rule, statements beginning with "most" tend to be overbroad. I'm guilty of it too, but I try to shy away from telling the world what "most" of us do/think/are/believe. Because when you lay down those broad statements, you are often just wrong. Your milage may vary, as we say...and in this case it does vary from mine.

FWIW, IMHO (I wonder if I could construct an entire sentence of nothing but Net acronyms?) I've had several submissives who tolerated and thrived being objectified, but who froze in their tracks and railed (not in a good way) at a hint of humiliation/degradation.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 15

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 9:53:13 AM

juliaoceania

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Most women have rape fantasies.. what are these pray tell?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 16

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 9:58:42 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Julia, I'd say that a Rape Fantasy is more of a "power" "helpless" thing than humiliation especially if a woman wants to do it in a real scene.
"Power Exchange" is the major part of a Rape scene IMHO.
"Humiliation" would be more of a secondary consideration in that, again, in my opinion.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 10:10:55 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Actually, in my experience it is the reverse, and few female subs, and fewer women, have this component in their fantasy lives (or perhaps they just haven't shared it with Me?).

I can't speak for other submissives but will admit to favoring all three. I find great fulfillment in objectification, humiliation, and degradation. I would probably attribute the attraction to my natural personna which is inherently dominant and a lifestyle that places me in control on a daily basis. I would gather that enduring the above permits me to step outside of the comforts of my typical interactions and adopt a different mindset. I find the challenge of behaving outside of my normal spectrum to be very euphoric and sensual.

porcelaine

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His will; my fate.

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 18

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 10:26:49 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Julia, I'd say that a Rape Fantasy is more of a "power" "helpless" thing than humiliation especially if a woman wants to do it in a real scene.
"Power Exchange" is the major part of a Rape scene IMHO.
"Humiliation" would be more of a secondary consideration in that, again, in my opinion.

Rape fantasies often are about responsibility for being a wanton slut being deflected to the perpetrator... They often have humiliation undertones... I could start a thread and ask women about their rape fantasies... degradation is often a predominant theme. Rape fantasies have power elements, but that is not always the biggest theme for women... although actual rape is always about power and control. It is a safe way for women to fantasize themselves into a sexual object.

Since I began exploring my submissiveness I experience less fantasies about rape, I hardly ever have them anymore.. but the objectification and humiliation fantasies still crop up...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 19

RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 10:32:55 AM

LadyTantalize

Posts: 242
Joined: 4/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I do not do humilation play -- sorry, just can't keep a straight face when I've tried and that sort of ruins it.

Good to hear as I'm the same! One of my professional specialities is verbal humiliation and I'm damn good at it, but often I crack myself up -- but I just take the laughter and use that as another humiliation tool. Truly, it's a riot!

While on a personal level, often I do not giggle - I worry.... what effect this is having on their psyche, what drove them to want this, what are the ramifications to our relationship. I've found that I have a hard time inacting humiliation on a personal level even when dealing with a mate, slave/sub or partner who wants and craves it.

Weird, I know.

_____________________________

Truly, Lady T.

Lady Tatiana Tantalize
Atlanta's Sadistic Southern Belle, Crossdressing Consultant, Punk-Rock Party Girl and Wicked SugarPuss
http://www.ladytantalize.net

"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages."
-Tennessee William

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 20

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