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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 11:23:53 AM

popeye1250

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Julia, you'd make a lovely "Fuck Doll", lol.
Yes, I guess there could also be some degree of degradation in a rape scene and you could script it into the scene orally or physically.
OK, off to the Gym to hit the treadmill and weight machines!
BBL.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 11:42:52 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

Honestly, I’m not bitching. I’m seeking clarification. I’ve read all the threads on cuckolding sissification and such, I sort of have a handle on that… but I would really like some insight on the reasoning behind objectification and humiliation. I’ve met a lot of male sub/slaves that are really into that. I realize there are females that are into it as well, but it seems more prevalent in the males. Many times I have had to tell a male sub/slave that I am just not capable of treating another human being as less then human. I just don’t have it in me. I doubt if it’s something that I’ll ever really “get in to”… but I really would like to understand it better.

Jewel

O.K., I am going to try this again. I am going to come at this from my own point of view as that is the one I generally operate from

I see humiliation of a submissive as a dominant using his knowledge of her sexual desires, her ingrained guilt (from society, parents, past lovers, etcc) over enjoying such things at a high frequency, her paradoxical desire to be a "good girl" who doesn't do these things and highlighting it during their play. To tell a girl who desires to be a 'good girl' and who paradoxically loves oral sex that she is a "fantastic cocksucker" and that she is a "nasty slut because she enjoys it so muchand that you like good little cocksuckers like her" is humiliating and esteem-building at the same time. From my experience, it does seem to work better with submissives closer to my age than in many of the younger ones (different time periods, changing mores of society, ??? ) though I have known a couple of young ones who grew up in very strict households who, perhaps because of the striking contrast between their household teaching and the beliefs of their peers, seemed to really be conflicted and subsequently, enjoyed it all the more.
Degradation was mentioned as being the same as humiliation. To me, they are not and the simplest example I can give of that is this: Telling a BBW that you are engaged with that she is "a very naughty, very sexy, very good slut" is humiliation. Telling the same BBW that she is a "a fat, nasty, ugly slut who behaves this way because it is the only way she can get a man and she must have done it a lot because she is good at it" is not humiliation...in my view...it is degradation. It is degradation because it takes an aspect of her as a person...being big...and makes it into something to be made fun of, to use to make someone feel less than what they are.
Of course, as stated...this is from my point of view. Others may have a differing line of where the two are and how separate they are.

Objectification is when I use my submissive with little regard, yet with deep awareness of her feelings about what we're doing, as some sort of object. For me, the realm is sexual or artistic.
I have no use for an ashtray (I don't smoke) and I have no need of a footstool (don't like putting my feet up all that much). One way in which I combine humiliation and objectification is in the use of a leash. Many times...though not always...when I put a leash on a submissive, it is because I intend to use her as a sexual object and possibly, as an object to be admired (at a play party for example). There is also the humiliation factor of being led by another.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 1:35:22 PM

Homestead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Actually, in my experience it is the reverse, and few female subs, and fewer women, have this component in their fantasy lives (or perhaps they just haven't shared it with Me?).

I can't speak for other submissives but will admit to favoring all three. I find great fulfillment in objectification, humiliation, and degradation. I would probably attribute the attraction to my natural personna which is inherently dominant and a lifestyle that places me in control on a daily basis. I would gather that enduring the above permits me to step outside of the comforts of my typical interactions and adopt a different mindset. I find the challenge of behaving outside of my normal spectrum to be very euphoric and sensual.

porcelaine

Nodding........the three are interelated. All involve a redirecting or leveling of the basic ego construct. In humiliation, one retains ego- but suffers a loss of status.

In degradation it goes further, striking more to an individuals core vision of self.

And finally, in ojectification, one becomes an extension-or something totally other than one's own ego construct.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 1:45:31 PM

popeye1250

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Creative, yes you hit that nail right on the head.
I always do that too, like if a sub is doing a great job at oral sex I'll tell her; "What a good little girl you are."
Sometimes though I'll say; "Go on, suck that cock you nasty little bitch, you know you want to!"
I always try to give some type of encouragement verbally whether I'm chastising her or praising her.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 2:20:05 PM

Homestead

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And just to add some further clarification of my own............

This all goes WAY beyond the sexual realm to me. If there was not a deep and abiding sesne to spirit in this, I would not even bother with any of it.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 2:45:32 PM

kisshou

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The great thing about being owned property is you know you are wanted.

There is nothing more romantic then to be told 'I own you'

Another really cool thing is when an Owner writes 'Mine' on you

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 3:09:31 PM

behindmirrors

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Most women have rape fantasies.. what are these pray tell?

I fall into the category of NOT fantasizing about that in the slightest...perhaps that's why you chose the word most. I have been raped, and thus, know what it's like. There is no fantasy for me in that at all, and "rape play" is one of my absolute hardest of hard limits.

Objectification, I could see myself doing, perhaps. I trust if my Dominant chooses that as something we explore, he will do it in a way I can handle. Humiliation often makes me all sorts of turned on, though...provided certain things are not brought up. Again, my Dominant knows what these things are and is good to me on that much.
I guess the difference to me between those two is that the first one is degraded below human status in a way- to serve as an object is to let go of humanity a bit, to try to get one to acknowledge that they are not human but an object, to let go of human principle or shame; yet humiliation is effective particularly because it plays off of being human- it deals more with taking human thought and using it to cause shame, embarassment, etc., through whatever means, be it name calling, or telling them to do something embarassing to them, etc.

I don't know if that made any sense, but it's my thoughts.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 3:35:27 PM

Homestead

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Humiliation is used by myself as a form of intimate acceptance. Shame is in percpetion, I move beyond this to abolish guilt.

The prison unravled, thread by thread.............and the way to the stars opened.............

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 4:07:29 PM

JassWolf

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Each of these -- objectification, humiliation, degradation -- seems to depend on the reaction of the one submitting to them more than on precisely what is being done, or even why.

Can any of the submissives talk more about his/her reactions to each? Do they differ? (I mean: so far as you can separate them, can you tell whether you have been objectified, or humiliated, or degraded by your reaction?) What response is the dominant trying to provoke with each?

_____________________________

The greater part of what my neighbors call good I believe in my soul to be bad, and if I repent of anything, it is very likely to be my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well? -- Thoreau

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 6:44:23 PM

WhipTheHip

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
I’ve met a lot of male sub/slaves that are really into that. I realize there are females that are into it as well, but it seems more prevalent in the males. Many times I have had to tell a male sub/slave that I am just not capable of treating another human being as less then human. I just don’t have it in me. I doubt if it’s something that I’ll ever really “get in to”… but I really would like to understand it better. Jewel

Some people get enjoyment from having others take pleasure from their body. Some sexual pleasure is vicarous. The joy that a parnter gets from giving oral sex is knowing that they are giving their partner pleasure. Some people enjoy being used as a sex object or sex toy, it makes them feel good that others can get sexual enjoyment from their body. It reaffirms their sexual value. Some people crave to have their physical body needed. When you refuse to objectify someone, you are telling them you have little sexual interest in their physical body, that all you care about is their mind and personality. Well, humans are sexual beings. Many people want you to love their personality, value their intelligence, and get pleasure from their physical body. By getting pleasure from their physical body, you fullfil a basic need they have. By refusing to use their body, you are saying to them I only love or am interested in you for your mind.

Some subs have a problem with being sexual. They may have been sexually abused or for some reason feel conflicted about sex. By using their body for youself, you free them from whatever guilt feelings or conflicted emotions they may have over sex. Refusing to objectify a partner because you don't want to treat another being less than human, would be like refusing to flog a sub (who gets pleasure from being flogged) because you don't want to torture any living creature. By refusing to objectify someone who craves to be objecitified, you cause them great emotional distress, and sexual frustration. And you lower their self-esteem, because you are telling them you have no use or interest in their physical body.

Finally, some people have been hurt and traumatized by love. They want to get sexual pleasure without having to be loved or give love, because they find love too emotionally painful. Some people have built a wall around their heart, and fear to let others in because they fear being hurt and disappointed. And they can't bare being hurt and disappointed one more time.

Sex and love are two different things. For some people sex and love have to come together, for other people sex and love are two different things, and they can't get real sexual pleasure from someone who is showing them love. Quite possibly because the first person who had sex with them forced them to have sex, and they became imprinted with this first-time encounter meaning they get most sexual pleasure from sex that in some respects resembles this first encounter.

Empathy means understanding what others need. You just can't put yourself in the shoes of others, and ask what I would want if I were in their shoes. A male should not look at a female and assume she wants a dick so she can fuck other women, because that is what he would want if he were in her place.

So, if a sub has a body you would enjoy and they want you to enjoy it, you are hurting yourelf and you are hurting them if you don't enjoy their body.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 8/11/2006 6:50:11 PM >

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:21:00 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Julia, I'd say that a Rape Fantasy is more of a "power" "helpless" thing than humiliation especially if a woman wants to do it in a real scene.
"Power Exchange" is the major part of a Rape scene IMHO.
"Humiliation" would be more of a secondary consideration in that, again, in my opinion.

I never feel helpless when engaging in rape play. Quite often the opposite is true and I experience a surge of energy and power watching the supposed predator take me. Perhaps it is the surrender in his eyes or the sheer wanton need that drives him in the first place. Either way I do feel in control and find it adds another dimension of pleasure to the play.

porcelaine

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 7:33:06 PM

popeye1250

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Kisshou, yes, that IS quite romantic, isn't it!
"I OWN YOU. YOU ARE MY PROPERTY."

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 8:20:34 PM

WhipTheHip

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Hi Porcelaine,

    I love rape play, and consensual nonconsensuality, but always
get in trouble for admitting it. I guess a lot of people have a
problem differetiating fantasy from reality.

Here is an analogy.

Rape : Rape Play :: Real Torture : bdsm

It is hard to get vanillia people to understand
how people enjoy bdsm because they ask
how can anyone like pain. I don't understand
how people into bdsm can't understand the
difference between real rape, and "rape
play."

Even in the bdsm world, I guess a lot off
people can't differentiate between fantasy
and reality.

With love, lashes, and endless hugs,
Michael

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 9:32:09 PM

behindmirrors

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Rape : Rape Play :: Real Torture : bdsm

It is hard to get vanillia people to understand
how people enjoy bdsm because they ask
how can anyone like pain. I don't understand
how people into bdsm can't understand the
difference between real rape, and "rape
play."

Even in the bdsm world, I guess a lot off
people can't differentiate between fantasy
and reality.

For me, it's not a matter of being able to differenciate the two- I can, and I understand their difference- it's more that it puts me in a headspace that is not very good, and I get dissociative- much different than the "sub-space" I can enjoy in other forms of play. It genuinely scares me (not in the thrilling way), and I crash, shake, throw up, and can't cope with it emotionally. I know it is an entirely different thing, but my body reacts in a stress response from the previous events. I pass no judgement on those who do enjoy it in play (after all, whatever does it for you works for you, who am I to judge?), it's just really, really not my thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JassWolf

Can any of the submissives talk more about his/her reactions to each? Do they differ? (I mean: so far as you can separate them, can you tell whether you have been objectified, or humiliated, or degraded by your reaction?) What response is the dominant trying to provoke with each?

I can tell a bit of a difference between these things: to be objectified is, for me, an entirely different feeling than being humiliated. To try to put this into terms that will make sense: in objectification, I feel somewhat disconneted from myself save the part of me that is being objectified (physical feeling with a strange detachment, as though I experience myself from a different place), but with humiliation, I am more in touch emotionally as I hear things, think about my situation, etc. To be degraded is much like humiliation to me, and I have a hard time separating the two...this could be the means of humiliation we have played with thus far more than anything in this case, though.

Sorry if that first response sounded defensive. That is not my intent- just clarification.

behindmirrors.

< Message edited by behindmirrors -- 8/11/2006 9:33:02 PM >

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 9:58:24 PM

Homestead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Julia, I'd say that a Rape Fantasy is more of a "power" "helpless" thing than humiliation especially if a woman wants to do it in a real scene.
"Power Exchange" is the major part of a Rape scene IMHO.
"Humiliation" would be more of a secondary consideration in that, again, in my opinion.

I never feel helpless when engaging in rape play. Quite often the opposite is true and I experience a surge of energy and power watching the supposed predator take me. Perhaps it is the surrender in his eyes or the sheer wanton need that drives him in the first place. Either way I do feel in control and find it adds another dimension of pleasure to the play.

porcelaine

This is probably why I get off on denial more. I feel more of a power surge by NOT giving someone something they want.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 10:21:39 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Nodding........the three are interelated. All involve a redirecting or leveling of the basic ego construct. In humiliation, one retains ego- but suffers a loss of status.

In degradation it goes further, striking more to an individuals core vision of self.

And finally, in ojectification, one becomes an extension-or something totally other than one's own ego construct.

I have never seen it put this way before, but it really speaks to my own experiences. And I fully agree about it going beyond the sexual realm. The physicality of certain humiliation/degredation/objectification experiences is merely a way to reach the inner core. I say "certain" because some practices can be administered by mere words.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 10:28:32 PM

songofeire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kisshou, yes, that IS quite romantic, isn't it!
"I OWN YOU. YOU ARE MY PROPERTY."

Quite.

MarinMaso

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 10:28:38 PM

Homestead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Nodding........the three are interelated. All involve a redirecting or leveling of the basic ego construct. In humiliation, one retains ego- but suffers a loss of status.

In degradation it goes further, striking more to an individuals core vision of self.

And finally, in ojectification, one becomes an extension-or something totally other than one's own ego construct.

I have never seen it put this way before, but it really speaks to my own experiences. And I fully agree about it going beyond the sexual realm. The physicality of certain humiliation/degredation/objectification experiences is merely a way to reach the inner core. I say "certain" because some practices can be administered by mere words.

It is akin to magical practices. We suspend a belief in an overlaying reality. That reality then becomes unreal for a time.

And we step beyond it, into a small bubble in the universe we create as a seperate reality. And we have unreal experiences, that we relate to as real.

When the bubble bursts, the memory remains-we do not forget.

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 11:07:41 PM

vield

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This discussion of terms such as objectification, humiliation and so forth bring me back to the point that all of us are products of the different experiences we have found in life, and all of us have different views on what a word or action will mean to us. This is complicated by the fact that our own personal interpretations and points of view are subject to change as time passes, as we are with different people, and as we go through different environments.

Thus I try to always talk things through and make sure what a potential partner means, from as many points of view as I can think of.

One person may find it a big turn on to be objectified and told to role play a statue or an end table. Another person may find the same intruction to be humiliating, which may be a big turn on for them. Another person may find similar humiliation but to them this may be depressing, hurtful, or a hard limit. Yet another person may find this boring, difficult to understand, silly, or joyful.

LOL one of the best submissive experiences is to have a dominant very much enjoy giving you something they feel humiliates you or hurts you, when actually the action is one of your favorite tiurn ons! Everyone comes up smiling after this.

It is not always important to get to the bottom of a person's thoughts in the case of casual play, as long as all is consensual and safe. Scene events are good places to try such things. However in the case of doing things seriously with a partner, best to know what everyone thinks about what is going on.

All of us have hard limits of some sort, and we may not know them unless they come up in a scene. All hard limits need respecting. Therefore I find it very important that all playing have agreed safe words or safe signals to pause or stop action if a limit gets found. This can be helpful to dominants as well as submissives, since dominants can find unexpected limits too.

Often scene groups will speak of sudden unexpected limits appearing as "Land mines" as they happen so unexpectedly. Land mines may result from past experiences we do not even remember, or from other unknown causes. There can be flashbacks from post traumatic stress, for example. One may not see any relationship from the original stress event to what is hapening now.

vield

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RE: I need some clarification about objectification.... - 8/11/2006 11:09:33 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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To start I will say that I lack something that so many subs seem to use humiliation and objectification to help deal with- guilt. I simply have never felt guilty about wanting what I wanted. I have felt bad about hurting other people's feelings sometimes, I used to be upset over my rape fantasies but then happily tossed that aside years ago when I realized I could enjoy my fantasy with no problems in reality, but no guilt at all over knowing and being who I am. So I don't empathize much with the experience of using force or objectification to make me free to be and do who and what I am.

But here is my personal essay on humiliation and objectification:

Part of it is BECAUSE of my academic background, I'm very smart and very well educated. I think a LOT, I work a LOT, I am a control freak, I have moderate OCD, I am the social planner for my group of friends.

Being an object means you don't have to think, you don't have to stress, you just have to BE that object. You are there, purely and passively, for service and use. There's no need for you to interpret anything, no need for you to react, only simply to BE there.

That's a pretty awesome state of being for me.

Another part, the shown off part, is because I am an exhibitionist, I get a huge charge out of people's energy when they enjoy looking and playing with me. They are giving ME lots of attention, they want to touch ME, they want to use ME for pleasure, I can provide them with a release, with a good time, a good memory.

The sexual usage part is just part of my universal sex fantasy life- it's just hot to be used, hot to be a hole to go in, do your thing and get out. I don't really know much about that other than what I've already stated. I can't tell you why it gets me so deep any more than I can tell you why bondage does.

Something most subs and slaves can understand- it takes away choice. You don't have to think, you don't get to say no, you are there to always say YES, an object, a trophy doesn't get to say stop or get to dictate how it is used.

I am somewhat materialistic in that I like to use my money and gifts to show people I care for them. It's a physical thing I can give to show I've been thinking of them and want to add to their lives. While I understand they don't NEED those things, it's a very powerful idea to me. So, to BE the object itself, to be given to someone else, has a distinct personal flavor to it.

You'll notice- all of these reasons are about ME, what I enjoy, what I get out of it.

The Owner will pass me around and use me in ways I don't necessarily enjoy directly. He will send me to people I don't have an affinity for, partly because he KNOWS I don't have an affinity for them. So I don't necessarily always love it, with anyone, anywhere. There are definitely circumstances in which I really hate it.

While I love attention, I am actually quite uncomfortable ASKING for attention, I am very uneasy when people actually look at me and say "Now, I'm going to give you all this attention, just for you, just to enjoy, and there's nothing you can do about it."

Part of it is because not too many people are actually really GOOD at giving me happy pleasure, part of it is that I've trained myself to adapt and become what the OTHER person needs for that session, which, if it's a good match, will also be what I need.

And part of it is just my innate shyness and discomfort with being a focal point of attention. I don't know what to do with it, I feel very exposed. Perhaps a paradox for someone who LOVES being exposed, but that's why I call humiliation a "burning."

So, the humiliation and objectification is a keen way for me to receive attention, which I love, while being passive about asking for it and simply being a pretty little butterfly that people are attracted to, rather than dealing with the harder ordeal for me of directly asking and directly being told to sit back and enjoy.

_____________________________

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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