Michel Foucault on Punishment

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RighteousBabe -> Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 7:53:44 AM)
I am not sure how many here are familar with the works of philosopher Michel Foucault....he certainly can be tough to read, but he has some brilliant writings on sexuality, discpline, punishment and power. I came across this quote from Foucault and thought I would share it here. “In its function, the power to punish is not essentially different from that of curing or educating.” What are your thoughts on punishment (in the realm of BDSM) as a tool for educating and possibly even as a resource for curing/healing, as suggested above? Take care, Tia

mistoferin -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 7:59:53 AM)
My personal opinion on punishment is that it is unnecessary in a relationship between mature adults who take responsibility for and are accountable for their own actions. If you are interested in doing a search, we have had quite a number of threads regarding punishment...some within the last couple of weeks.

RighteousBabe -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 8:05:54 AM)
Excellent...thank you mistoferin. I have always been interested in the theories, research and history of punishment on a sociological level...that's how I discovered Mr. Foucault. Since I have been exploring the BDSM realm in the last year or so, I'm looking at ways to link academic theories on punishment to the various views on punishment from folks who practice BDSM. (I'm a bit of a research nut!) Take care.

velvetears -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 8:10:09 AM)
Theres punishment and then theres discipline. If the dynamic in wanted and works between the two consenting adults - who are we to judge. i think those that like punishment (subs) like it because it releases them of the guilt they feel for having offended, disobeyed, etc their dom. Some like the "game" and both really understand it as such. Then there are others (subs) who just use it as a way to manipulate the dom. i think if a dom is going to use punishment in his relationship with the sub he should do so very carefully and wisely. Unless he likes dancing to her fiddle lol. Punishment means failure and thats a drag - why would any sub want to displease their dom to that point? i know there have been many threads on punishment and i have read some of them. i guess its on peoples minds a lot? If i were a dom and i had to punish my sub a lot i don't think i'd like my job very much [&o]

SCORPIOXXX -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 8:19:29 AM)
I have read Foucalt as part of my Sociology classes... We should note that your quote is in the context of Punishment (that is: incarceration and all that goes with it) as beneficial to the State more than to the individual -- with the "cure and education" being no more than the fear of getting locked up again... As to how that applies to individual in a BDSM D/s dynamic, it depends on how Punishment is viewed: a pain slut may provoke punishment because she enjoys it (which is then no punishment at all); if un-enjoyable punishment is administerd (such as denial of "beating / sex / whatever", or being forced to watch W Bush speeches for hours) then of course the unwarranted behavior will change in all but the dumbest or most stubborn and obdurate people. The change may be educational (realization of action and its result), but as for the healing, this may apply only to the D/s dynamic rather than to the individual at fault... Of course, there is a huge difference between Foucalt's themes and a BDSM D/s dynamic: in the former, the object of punishment does not enter into it willingly and consentually (no one wants to go to jail, lol), whereas in the latter, the sub enters the relationship willingly and accepts the punishment in the same manner...

RighteousBabe -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 8:33:27 AM)
Very good points Scorpio... Yes, Foucault's theory of punishment from his book "Discipline and Punish" indeed revolve around the contexts of incarceration and unwanted punishments. Its true that Foucault's themes on the surface differ greatly from those of a BDSM dynamic, consent to punishment being a great factor. Myself, I am always interested in ways of finding links and common themes between various topics (even if they appear somewhat unrelated) and then brainstorm on ways to expand on those themes. Its a quirk of mine...[;)] So would you say that the concept of healing via punishment is more applicable in a D/s dynamic than it is in other circumstances such as in a criminological context? BTW, I shudder to think of inflicting W's speeches for hours as a punishment technique...that's just plain cruel!! :) Thank you for sharing! (edited to correct my spelling errors!)

Alumbrado -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 9:10:49 AM)
Michael Tonry's works, including 'The Future of Imprisonment' make for some interesting follow up reading to Foucault, Bentham, et al.

DoctorDubious -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 11:24:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RighteousBabe I am not sure how many here are familar with the works of philosopher Michel Foucault....he certainly can be tough to read, but he has some brilliant writings on sexuality, discpline, punishment and power. I came across this quote from Foucault and thought I would share it here. “In its function, the power to punish is not essentially different from that of curing or educating.” *What are your thoughts on punishment (in the realm of BDSM) as a tool for educating and possibly even as a resource for curing/healing, as suggested above?* Take care, Tia Hi Tia.... and all.... Back when I was a young smartass, instead of a friskysmartassoldbondagelovinggoatwithafloggerortwo ...I read Michel Fuckault, and even understood a word or two (but not much more... cause the guy is intentionally obscure). That shit up there is a tad out of context, but still fascinating.... as another poster pointed out..... I think Fuckault does not understand BDSM, but he really opened a lot of minds about how POWER works in the real world, and for that he will live a *small* corner of eternal thinkers... ********************************** But..... for me.... and in the context of a long-term, serious, 1 on 1 D/s relationship, where her surrender is willing given ... and I have earned the right to TAKE IT as I will.... --punishment is NOT primarily educational in nature --punishement is NOT primarily "curing" in intent --punishment is NOT even primarily about "training" my lover in obedience. --punishment is NOT done for her "personal growth" --punishment is just a raw expression of my power (see note) --punishment is done to give me the feelings I want --punishment is sexual and feeds my kink,* --punishment is pleasure for me, * --punishment can be done for the pleasure and amusement of my friends...* --punishment can be done merely because I'm in the mood for dark pleasures * * and *it's OK by me* if she also gets off on it, but in a real power exchange, her pleasure/kink/fun are incidental, secondary, and little-considered. ---- got it? Her needs and desires and training etc are *incidental* in a D/s relationship.**** DD, a bossy old goat who gets a kick from power PS..... and before all you whiners flame me for insensitivity towards the subs "oh-so-delicate-feelings" go back and read the fricking context... it's the first paragraph under the line of asterisks...

MissdeSade -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 11:40:16 AM)
Oh, how exciting to see a Foucault thread! I think punishment is essential to a certain type of slave or submissive training, but not essential to all D/S or M/S relationships. I think more Dominates actually use Foucault's theory of the panopticon more- that being watched is the greatest way to keep someone from misbehaving. The threat of eyes keep people in check. You should read Jacques Lacan if you like this stuff.

velvetears -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/30/2006 12:16:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DoctorDubious But..... for me.... and *in the context of a long-term, serious,* *1 on 1 D/s relationship, where her surrender is willing given* ... and I have earned the right to TAKE IT as I will.... --punishment is NOT primarily educational in nature --punishement is NOT primarily "curing" in intent --punishment is NOT even primarily about "training" my lover in obedience. --punishment is NOT done for her "personal growth" --punishment is just a raw expression of my power *(see note) --punishment is done to give me the feelings I want * --punishment is sexual and feeds my kink,* --punishment is pleasure for me, * --punishment can be done for the pleasure and amusement of my friends...* --punishment can be done merely because I'm in the mood for dark pleasures * * and it's OK by me if she also gets off on it, but in a real power exchange, her pleasure/kink/fun are incidental, secondary, and little-considered. ---- got it? Her needs and desires and training etc are incidental in a D/s relationship.** At first when i read your post i thought you were confusing the terms punishment and sadism as the accepted definition of punishment is "A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: “The severity of the punishment must... be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated” (Dictionary.com definition). But there is another definition which fits more in line with what you outlined here - Rough handling; mistreatment: These old skis have taken a lot of punishment over the years. (Dictionary.com definition )- So i learned something new today

songofeire -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 12:05:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DoctorDubious ********************************** But..... for me.... and in the context of a long-term, serious, 1 on 1 D/s relationship, where her surrender is willing given ... and I have earned the right to TAKE IT as I will.... --punishment is NOT primarily educational in nature --punishement is NOT primarily "curing" in intent --punishment is NOT even primarily about "training" my lover in obedience. --punishment is NOT done for her "personal growth" --punishment is just a raw expression of my power (see note) --punishment is done to give me the feelings I want --punishment is sexual and feeds my kink,* --punishment is pleasure for me, * --punishment can be done for the pleasure and amusement of my friends...* --punishment can be done merely because I'm in the mood for dark pleasures * * and *it's OK by me* if she also gets off on it, but in a real power exchange, her pleasure/kink/fun are incidental, secondary, and little-considered. ---- got it? Her needs and desires and training etc are *incidental* in a D/s relationship.**** DD, a bossy old goat who gets a kick from power PS..... and before all you whiners flame me for insensitivity towards the subs "oh-so-delicate-feelings" go back and read the fricking context... it's the first paragraph under the line of asterisks... Ummmmm, yeah... (breathing hard) What he said. Is it me, or is it getting really warm in here? Fanning self, Rosemary (whose admittedly incidental interests are piqued once again, or is it...still?)

meatcleaver -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 3:19:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RighteousBabe I am not sure how many here are familar with the works of philosopher Michel Foucault....he certainly can be tough to read, but he has some brilliant writings on sexuality, discpline, punishment and power. I came across this quote from Foucault and thought I would share it here. “In its function, the power to punish is not essentially different from that of curing or educating.” What are your thoughts on punishment (in the realm of BDSM) as a tool for educating and possibly even as a resource for curing/healing, as suggested above? Take care, Tia I've had several poems about him published, he was big when I was at college but he doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, he is more about self justification but an interesting figure, for being mainly wrong, I fear.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 3:48:28 AM)
Foucault also wrote about the power of sex in society. He felt it was real and strong, yet, not acknowledged. He was probably onto something there with the masses not understanding the power sex has, although most on this board would not be lumped with the unwashed in that respect.

meatcleaver -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 4:42:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain Foucault also wrote about the power of sex in society. He felt it was real and strong, yet, not acknowledged. He was probably onto something there with the masses not understanding the power sex has, although most on this board would not be lumped with the unwashed in that respect. His thoughts on power exchange are interesting though his writing is more about homosexual eperience. It's a while ago since I read him and he does differentiate between homosexual culture and hetrosexual culture and says they two experiences in power exchange are different. Though I'm not so sure how he knows, I wouldn't like to write on homosexual culture without experience. He doesn't convince me but he does provoke ones thoughts about sexual power. Maybe it's time to reread him.

trixr4kids -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 5:02:47 AM)
My thoughts are if the Dom beats you in a previously stated punishment (ie. if you do such and such I will do such and such) no matter how extremely (short of permanent damage- not scars but real damage or health compramise) in a controlled way for your betterment than that is indeed punishing in love and guidance. If a Dom without prior stating a behavior will get you beat or beats you in anger no matter what your infraction was it's abuse.

songofeire -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 8:14:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: trixr4kids My thoughts are if the Dom beats you in a previously stated punishment (ie. if you do such and such I will do such and such) no matter how extremely (short of permanent damage- not scars but real damage or health compramise) in a controlled way for your betterment than that is indeed punishing in love and guidance. If a Dom without prior stating a behavior will get you beat or beats you in anger no matter what your infraction was it's abuse. I think that if you are left with the impression that you have been abused, then you have. Your truth is your truth. This is not to try to name his truth or the truth but so what? You have to proceed from what is true for you, and make your decisions based on that. just my truth, Rosemary

RighteousBabe -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 8:43:13 AM)
Yes, Foucault is certainly a provactive writer when it comes to his themes on power and sexuality. I first read "Discipline & Punish" and "The History of Sexuality: Vol. 1" about 4 years ago in a wonderful course called "Introduction To Social Change". I remember feeling quite initimidated by Foucault...but I had an excellent Sociology professor who really broke down his themes and concepts in a way I could relate to. Now, each time I re-read Foucault, I find I pull out something new or am able to find new meaning in his words. As I recall reading, he was homosexual and he passed away from AIDS related complications in the 1980's. Thanks to all for the insightful comments! Tia quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver His thoughts on power exchange are interesting though his writing is more about homosexual eperience. It's a while ago since I read him and he does differentiate between homosexual culture and hetrosexual culture and says they two experiences in power exchange are different. Though I'm not so sure how he knows, I wouldn't like to write on homosexual culture without experience. He doesn't convince me but he does provoke ones thoughts about sexual power. Maybe it's time to reread him.

thetammyjo -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 10:03:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RighteousBabe I am not sure how many here are familar with the works of philosopher Michel Foucault....he certainly can be tough to read, but he has some brilliant writings on sexuality, discpline, punishment and power. I came across this quote from Foucault and thought I would share it here. “In its function, the power to punish is not essentially different from that of curing or educating.” What are your thoughts on punishment (in the realm of BDSM) as a tool for educating and possibly even as a resource for curing/healing, as suggested above? Take care, Tia That is how I view punishment -- its a means to change behavior and attitude, one way to teach. This is the reason that I do not have standard punishments but make them suit the person and the issue. It is also a reason I use practice or redoing something rather than any punishment -- doing something over and over can help you learn to do it better. I believe it is the 5 times rule in pedagogy -- you need to go over the material at least five times to learn it.

cloudboy -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 10:56:14 AM)
In the enlightened sense, “the power to punish is not essentially different from that of curing or educating,” is truthy. In the sadistic, brutalization sense, it is falsey. Also, "punishment" in the BDSM context is a rather elastic term. Some might consider being paddled or caned "play," whereas I would not. For me that would either be "work" or punishment. I'm not sure I would classify the outcome of such as "curing" or "educating", as much as I would see it as a sacrificial taking and unification between top and bottom.

happypervert -> RE: Michel Foucault on Punishment (7/31/2006 5:39:12 PM)
quote: the power to punish is not essentially different from that of curing or educating What I find interesting about this quote is that he compares the power to punish to curing and educating. He could have chosen to be gramatically consistent and say that punishing is not essentially different, but that changes the meaning to an exercise of that power. So, I can agree with that -- having the power is enough; one doesn't have to use it. The power can also be used in more constructive ways as TammyJo suggests.

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