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MasterJaguar01 -> A religious topic (7/26/2025 4:33:47 PM)
Since this forum is 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% Politics The rest is religion. Not being a Christian myself, but being married to one, I am learning more and more of what Christianity really is. (OR at least what I can glean form my own discovery) Please understand" I completely respect the concept of Christianity and hold the faith in the highest regard. (As the woman I love is a devout follower of Jesus and is a believer of his miracles and of his deity.) Personally, I believe that Jesus was an amazing G-dly man who was far more a political activist than a religious one. I believe that the story of his deity and his miracles were concocted by the Romans at the time of Constantine (who suddenly declared Rome as Christian), and inserted these stories into the gospels (and then sealed them into a "New Testament at the Council of Nicaea. I could be completely wrong about this. I wasn't there. HOWEVER, whether you believe Jesus was a deity who died for humanity's sins, and fulfilled Jewish law, OR you believe he was just an amazing righteous man who called BS on the corruption of the Hebrew leadership at the time) or anything in between or combination thereof... It seems clear that Jesus had NO intention of starting a religion based on himself. Yes he did ask his disciples to follow him, but that was a logistical ask, so they could help him spread his message. BTW: I HIGHLY recommend watching "The Chosen" I know the writers took a lot of liberties with the story, but it is fascinating! The fact is Jesus was a practicing Jew, as were all of his disciples (notice I did not say "Apostles). They held Shabat and celebrated all of the Jewish holidays. They sat Shiva when someone passed away. They said all of the Jewish prayers. I don't think Jesus, nor his disciples found anything about his teaching to be in conflict with Jewish life. Of course Jewish leadership, then and now, as well as myself find a definite conflict with belief in Jesus as a deity and Jewish law. Sorry to ramble here but: I think earthly Jesus would be horrified at what the Romans created from his teaching. I think he would be horrified to see a crucifix (the horrible torture device that killed him) as a symbol of some new religion. I just don't believe he ever wanted to start a new religion. He and his disciples were happy as practicing devout Jews. My thoughts. Are there any religious scholars, theologians, or amazing historians that can shed more light on this? BTW: Although my wife vehemently disagrees with my belief that Jesus was not a deity, she DOES agree that he had no intention of starting a new religion. I would love the discussion.

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (7/26/2025 5:18:28 PM)
Joe and Mary had premarital sex. Mary got pregnant, a sin for which she and Joe would have been stoned to death. So they made up a fantastic story, and even Jesus was conned. He really believed, right up until the very end... His final words? "Father, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (7/26/2025 5:40:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX Joe and Mary had premarital sex. Mary got pregnant, a sin for which she and Joe would have been stoned to death. So they made up a fantastic story, and even Jesus was conned. He really believed, right up until the very end... His final words? "Father, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34) Well, they were betrothed. (A legally binding contract in Jewish society, but were not yet married) So, you are saying the entire story of Jesus was made up by Joseph and Mary to cover up pre-marital sex??????? And Jesus believed this story, found 12 disciples, preached across the middle east, and preached at the Sermon on The Mount to thousands, built a following of hundreds of thousands (enough for Constantine to realize that the belief in Jesus was getting so big, it would undermine is ability to rule) All because of a story to cover up pre-marital sex??? Besides being more cynical than I am. That just does not seem plausible. Keep in mind... His disciples hadn't been chosen at the time of his birth, and the story of his deity didn't come out until he was 32 years old. So what was their story for the first 32 years?

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (7/26/2025 5:46:10 PM)
If you really believe, expect miracles. But never fall for fairy tales.

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (7/26/2025 5:48:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX Joe and Mary had premarital sex. Mary got pregnant, a sin for which she and Joe would have been stoned to death. BTW:Deuteronomy 22:21 addresses pre-marital sex (Of course Deuteronomy is the key chapter for Jewish Law) " "she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you." So, only Mary could be stoned, but ONLY if the pre-marital sex occurred in HER father's house. Are you saying that is what occurred?

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (7/27/2025 3:41:42 AM)
"Still in her fathers house" isn't literal in that sense - it simply means unmarried. There would have been at the very least shame when Joseph impregnated Mary, as sex during betrothal wasn't permitted. Do you really believe that God Himself fucked Mary? Did he at least buy her dinner first? Was there kink involved? And what were her orgasms like, considering it was God himself who was fucking her.

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (7/27/2025 9:33:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX "Still in her fathers house" isn't literal in that sense - it simply means unmarried. There would have been at the very least shame when Joseph impregnated Mary, as sex during betrothal wasn't permitted. Do you really believe that God Himself fucked Mary? Did he at least buy her dinner first? Was there kink involved? And what were her orgasms like, considering it was God himself who was fucking her. Ignoring your disgusting blasphemy... Just when I think you can't go any lower... 1. No I don't believe that 2. Not even Christians assert that (you misunderstand the entire Christian concept of the virgin birth)

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (7/27/2025 11:09:51 AM)
The simplest explanation is almost always the correct one, and Mary getting laid by God Himself is super complicated. And how dare I ask questions, or point out the obvious. "HERESY! BURN HIM at the stake..." You believe in sky fairies, and I do not - which explains a lot, especially regarding your blind devotion to your cult. Do you also believe that Mohammad flew to heaven on a winged horse after he died? Or do you only believe in CERTAIN ridiculous fairy tales.

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (7/27/2025 8:25:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX The simplest explanation is almost always the correct one, and Mary getting laid by God Himself is super complicated. There are far more plausible explanations. e.g. The Romans concocted the story to stay in power for another 1000 years. quote: And how dare I ask questions, or point out the obvious. "HERESY! BURN HIM at the stake..." You neither asked a question, nor pointed out the obvious. You just spewed degusting nonsense. quote: You believe in sky fairies, and I do not - which explains a lot, especially regarding your blind devotion to your cult. Do you also believe that Mohammad flew to heaven on a winged horse after he died? Or do you only believe in CERTAIN ridiculous fairy tales. This is just ridiculous in the truest sense of the word.

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (7/28/2025 4:06:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 This is just ridiculous in the truest sense of the word. Let's talk about that - "ridiculous" Again - do you also believe that Mohammad flew to heaven on a winged horse after he died? His bloodthirsty cult has far more followers today than your pope does. How are your fairy tales better than theirs I don't hate Christians, especially the ones who are very sincere and do so much good in the world. In fact, I would risk my life to protect them, and I have. But I certainly don't believe that a god who put snakes in the grass where kittens and puppies play really gives two fucks about me or you, because I am a realist. Existence itself is odd, but it's not sky-fairies-are-coming-to-save-me odd.

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (7/28/2025 6:57:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX Again - do you also believe that Mohammad flew to heaven on a winged horse after he died? NO

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (7/29/2025 12:14:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 NO How are your fairy tales and magical sky fairies better or more believable than theirs.

wickedsdesires -> RE: A religious topic (7/30/2025 9:42:01 AM)
Joe and Mary had premarital sex. Mary got pregnant, a sin for which she and Joe would have been stoned to death. that was really funny. keep that up and I might start to like you. How are your fairy tales and magical sky fairies better or more believable than theirs. Nothing to add to that. MasterJaguar01 talk about whichever subject you want too. I believe there may have been a Jesus as a person. Jesus was a common name. Jesus may have been a sort of Mohammad in that he quoted and used stories that came long before from deeper antiquity - and the remanent of what is remembered from oral tradition. if you take something like the Noah Flood that is based on the Epic of Gilgamesh flood and that is probably not the oldest telling but its the oldest that was written down. Stuff like floods would tend to originate from the sudden catastrophic collapse of the ice sheets - which was around about the younger dryas times which is 13000 years before present. There would be many floods via that mechanism and other mechanism including fire which was most likely meteors or comet debris or stuff of that ilk. The new testament is complete bollocks. New testament/gospels is basically an earlier Quran x 4 or more. With the old testament there is probably elements of truth in those ones. Personally I tend to believe in lost civilisation and of not them aliens. The old testament you talk about again is not an original, pretty much all of it has been pilfered from numerous civilisation and their texts. Bible or Quran thumpers. I talk to some. Not a fan of religion myself and when they start saying to me gods will I have proper conversations with them in what is religion. I myself was born a catholic and had to go to mass every Sunday which no one really explained to me why. The Christian and jewish sabbath are on two different days I think. American Evangelical Christians and their likes are fucking nuts. Egyptian priest’s explanation of why Egyptian records are superior and survive disasters, but Athenians remain “young” as a civilization At this point one of the priests, a very old man, said, “O Solon, Solon, you Greeks are always children: there is not such a thing as an old Greek.” And on hearing this Solon asked, “What do you mean by this saying?” The priest replied, “You are young in soul, every one of you. For you possess not a single belief that is ancient and derived from old tradition, nor is your understanding grey with age. [22c] And this is the cause: There have been and there will be many and diverse destructions of humankind.

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (7/30/2025 8:01:08 PM)
You and MJ are both Catholics. Mary, Mother of God - am I right?

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (8/3/2025 8:40:06 PM)
As to Jesus, he obviously believed he was the King of the Jews, Old Testament style. He thought he was destined to lead Israel's epic comeback Starting a new religion never occurred to him. In his Apostles' defense though, they were left unsupervised... Beside that, who was going to be the one to tell the infamous Christian slayer Paul that gentiles weren't welcome in their club

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (8/4/2025 7:16:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX As to Jesus, he obviously believed he was the King of the Jews, Old Testament style. He thought he was destined to lead Israel's epic comeback Actually, he was specific about NOT being an earthly king at all. He never got involved in politics at all, and even know. it was politics that would be his end, he did nothing to intervene.

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (8/4/2025 5:08:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 Actually, he was specific about NOT being an earthly king at all. He never got involved in politics at all, and even know. it was politics that would be his end, he did nothing to intervene. The ancient prophesies make it complicated, but long story short, I didn't post anything about "earthly". I wrote "Old Testament style".

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (8/4/2025 6:34:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 Actually, he was specific about NOT being an earthly king at all. He never got involved in politics at all, and even know. it was politics that would be his end, he did nothing to intervene. The ancient prophesies make it complicated, but long story short, I didn't post anything about "earthly". I wrote "Old Testament style". Old Testament Jewish Kings were earthly. Hence my comment.

BoscoX -> RE: A religious topic (8/5/2025 3:40:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 Old Testament Jewish Kings were earthly. Hence my comment. You're unaware of the prophesies. Or you're playing stupid? I tried to clarify for you, and for reasons known only to you, you refuse to understand my point. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and try one more time: Here's what Grok said when queried, "Which Old Testament prophesies talk about a Jewish king or whatever that Christians claim was Jesus?" quote: Christians often point to several Old Testament prophecies they believe refer to Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah or King. These prophecies, primarily from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), are interpreted by Christians as foreshadowing Jesus’ life, death, and role. Below is a concise overview of key passages commonly cited, with their Jewish and Christian interpretations:Isaiah 7:14 - “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”Christian View: This is seen as a prophecy of Jesus’ virgin birth (Matthew 1:22-23), with “Immanuel” (meaning “God with us”) pointing to his divine nature. Jewish View: The Hebrew word translated as “virgin” (almah) means “young woman” and may not imply virginity. Jews often see this as referring to a child born in the time of King Ahaz, not a future messiah. Micah 5:2 - “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Christian View: This is linked to Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1-6), with the “ruler” seen as the Messiah. Jewish View: This refers to a future Davidic king from Bethlehem, not necessarily divine, and some Jewish interpretations argue it’s about King David himself or a historical figure. Isaiah 9:6-7 - “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given... He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace... He will reign on David’s throne...”Christian View: Christians apply this to Jesus, emphasizing his divine titles and eternal kingship. Jewish View: Many Jews interpret this as referring to King Hezekiah or another Davidic king, with the titles being symbolic of God’s power, not a divine messiah. Psalm 22 - “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?... They pierce my hands and my feet... They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.”Christian View: This is seen as describing Jesus’ crucifixion, including his cry from the cross (Matthew 27:46) and the soldiers casting lots for his clothes (John 19:24). Jewish View: The psalm is understood as David’s personal suffering, not a messianic prophecy. The “piercing” translation is disputed, with some Jewish scholars arguing it refers to being “like a lion” at his hands and feet. Isaiah 53 - “He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities... By his wounds we are healed... He was led like a lamb to the slaughter...”Christian View: This “Suffering Servant” is interpreted as Jesus, who died for humanity’s sins and was resurrected (Acts 8:32-35). Jewish View: The servant is often seen as Israel itself or a righteous remnant, suffering for the nations, not an individual messiah. Daniel 9:24-26 - “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed... to anoint the Most Holy Place... An Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.”Christian View: The “Anointed One” (Messiah) is Jesus, whose death aligns with the timeline described. Jewish View: This refers to a historical figure, possibly a high priest or king, and the timeline is debated, often tied to the Second Temple’s destruction. Zechariah 9:9 - “See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey...”Christian View: This is fulfilled in Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:5). Jewish View: This describes a humble Davidic king, not necessarily a divine messiah, and may refer to a historical or future figure. Context and ConsiderationsChristian Interpretation: These prophecies are seen as fulfilled in Jesus’ birth, life, death, and resurrection, establishing him as the Messiah and King. Early Christians, like the Gospel writers, frequently quoted these passages to support their claims. Jewish Interpretation: Jewish scholars often argue these verses are either historical, referring to figures like Hezekiah or Israel itself, or describe a future messiah who will restore Israel politically and spiritually, not a divine figure like Jesus. Translation Issues: Differences in Hebrew-to-Greek (Septuagint) translations, used by early Christians, contribute to interpretive divides (e.g., “virgin” vs. “young woman” in Isaiah 7:14). Contextual Reading: Jews emphasize reading these passages in their immediate historical context, while Christians often see them as having dual or ultimate fulfillment in Jesus.

MasterJaguar01 -> RE: A religious topic (8/5/2025 6:38:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01 Old Testament Jewish Kings were earthly. Hence my comment. You're unaware of the prophesies. Or you're playing stupid? I tried to clarify for you, and for reasons known only to you, you refuse to understand my point. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and try one more time: Here's what Grok said when queried, "Which Old Testament prophesies talk about a Jewish king or whatever that Christians claim was Jesus?" quote: Christians often point to several Old Testament prophecies they believe refer to Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah or King. These prophecies, primarily from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), are interpreted by Christians as foreshadowing Jesus’ life, death, and role. Below is a concise overview of key passages commonly cited, with their Jewish and Christian interpretations:Isaiah 7:14 - “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”Christian View: This is seen as a prophecy of Jesus’ virgin birth (Matthew 1:22-23), with “Immanuel” (meaning “God with us”) pointing to his divine nature. Jewish View: The Hebrew word translated as “virgin” (almah) means “young woman” and may not imply virginity. Jews often see this as referring to a child born in the time of King Ahaz, not a future messiah. Micah 5:2 - “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Christian View: This is linked to Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1-6), with the “ruler” seen as the Messiah. Jewish View: This refers to a future Davidic king from Bethlehem, not necessarily divine, and some Jewish interpretations argue it’s about King David himself or a historical figure. Isaiah 9:6-7 - “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given... He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace... He will reign on David’s throne...”Christian View: Christians apply this to Jesus, emphasizing his divine titles and eternal kingship. Jewish View: Many Jews interpret this as referring to King Hezekiah or another Davidic king, with the titles being symbolic of God’s power, not a divine messiah. Psalm 22 - “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?... They pierce my hands and my feet... They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.”Christian View: This is seen as describing Jesus’ crucifixion, including his cry from the cross (Matthew 27:46) and the soldiers casting lots for his clothes (John 19:24). Jewish View: The psalm is understood as David’s personal suffering, not a messianic prophecy. The “piercing” translation is disputed, with some Jewish scholars arguing it refers to being “like a lion” at his hands and feet. Isaiah 53 - “He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities... By his wounds we are healed... He was led like a lamb to the slaughter...”Christian View: This “Suffering Servant” is interpreted as Jesus, who died for humanity’s sins and was resurrected (Acts 8:32-35). Jewish View: The servant is often seen as Israel itself or a righteous remnant, suffering for the nations, not an individual messiah. Daniel 9:24-26 - “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed... to anoint the Most Holy Place... An Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.”Christian View: The “Anointed One” (Messiah) is Jesus, whose death aligns with the timeline described. Jewish View: This refers to a historical figure, possibly a high priest or king, and the timeline is debated, often tied to the Second Temple’s destruction. Zechariah 9:9 - “See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey...”Christian View: This is fulfilled in Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:5). Jewish View: This describes a humble Davidic king, not necessarily a divine messiah, and may refer to a historical or future figure. Context and ConsiderationsChristian Interpretation: These prophecies are seen as fulfilled in Jesus’ birth, life, death, and resurrection, establishing him as the Messiah and King. Early Christians, like the Gospel writers, frequently quoted these passages to support their claims. Jewish Interpretation: Jewish scholars often argue these verses are either historical, referring to figures like Hezekiah or Israel itself, or describe a future messiah who will restore Israel politically and spiritually, not a divine figure like Jesus. Translation Issues: Differences in Hebrew-to-Greek (Septuagint) translations, used by early Christians, contribute to interpretive divides (e.g., “virgin” vs. “young woman” in Isaiah 7:14). Contextual Reading: Jews emphasize reading these passages in their immediate historical context, while Christians often see them as having dual or ultimate fulfillment in Jesus. Sorry, I was referring to actual Kings who lived during the times of the Old Testament (e.g. David, Herrod) Not profesized ones.

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