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Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 1:15:14 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		 FirmhandKY suggested this as a topic that might be interesting, and I think he's right.
 
So, what do you see as the difference between the two? Any?

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 1:20:34 PM   
SusanofO


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Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I can't put my finger on exactly why - but to me, Leadership connotes more freedom of choice on the part of the person (or people) being led. Dominance (or rather, being dominated) connotes less choice, somehow. Sorry to be vague (that's just the way I am he).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/29/2006 1:30:30 PM >

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 1:21:09 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Darn, you're fast.

I'll withhold my comments for now.

FHky

**grammar


< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 7/29/2006 2:13:11 PM >

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 1:22:33 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i see the qualities of leadership in someone who has more skills and knowledge so they are the one guiding others who have less skills and knowledge and can benefit from taking the others lead.

Dominance is more of a personality trait, therefore it doesn't require any particular "skill set" necesarily to be present, although that being said, i would want my dominant to be skillful if he was using any kind of implement or tool that could possibly injure me ie: a whip. 

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 1:25:18 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		A Leader has followers. They may follow for many reasons, but the one distinguishing factor is likely that they have developed trust, if they are a successful leader. You can put someone in a leadership position, but to retain it, they have to instill that "following.
 
A Dominant, or one with a dominant personality, simply is that way. They do not necessarily have to have a following, they will simply attempt to be domineering over those around them. Even if they fail, they will still have those traits.
 
This all being said may be the difference between a Dominant and a Master/Mistress, they, as with the Leader, have developed the trust it takes to move to that next stage. You won't follow someone simply because they are titled a leader or dominant...you will follow because they have proven that they "are" those things.
 
My take on it anyway :)


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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 1:48:40 PM   
MissdeSade


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Status: offline 		Leadership has less to do with the mental state of those involved. I think there may be faith or trust in a leader, but not like dominance, which requires full mental subservience. On the part of the dominate, the role is partially to lead, but also to teach, to push, to punish, and to reward. As a leader, the role is highly simplified, to complete a goal. I see them as very different, but that leadership is a key trait of a good dominate.

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 2:12:34 PM   
AnAtlantaDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissdeSade

Leadership has less to do with the mental state of those involved. I think there may be faith or trust in a leader, but not like dominance, which requires full mental subservience. On the part of the dominate, the role is partially to lead, but also to teach, to push, to punish, and to reward. As a leader, the role is highly simplified, to complete a goal. I see them as very different, but that leadership is a key trait of a good dominate.


I'm quite in agreement with MissDeSade.  Dominance at a high level requires full leadership qualities. 
 
Now possibily in a M/s relationship it has surpassed the need for leadership.
 
AD

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 2:28:10 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		I've got to disagree with you and MissdeSade.

For the purposes of discussion, let me haul out the definitions:

Leadership:
1 : the office or position of a leader
2 : capacity to lead
3 : the act or an instance of leading
4 : LEADERS  *the party leadership

Lead:
transitive:
1 a : to guide on a way especially by going in advance  b : to direct on a course or in a direction  c : to serve as a channel for  *a pipe leads water to the house*
3 a (1) : to direct the operations, activity, or performance of  *lead an orchestra*  (2) : to have charge of  *lead a campaign*  (3) : to suggest to (a witness) the answer desired by asking leading questions  b (1) : to go at the head of  *lead a parade*  (2) : to be first in or among  *lead the league*  (3) : to have a margin over  *led his opponent*
intransitive
1 a : to guide someone or something along a way  b : to lie, run, or open in a specified place or direction  *path leads uphill*  c : to guide a dance partner through the steps of a dance
2 a : to be first  b (1) : BEGIN, OPEN  (2) : to play the first card of a trick, round, or game
3 : to tend toward or have a result  *study leading to a degree*

Dominance:
1 : the fact or state of being dominant: as  a : dominant position especially in a social hierarchy 

Dominant:
1 a : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others  *the dominant culture*  b : very important, powerful, or successful  *a dominant theme*  *a dominant industry*
2 : overlooking and commanding from a superior position  *a dominant hill*

I see nothing that imputes leadership into the concept of "dominance".  I believe that the best "doms" ARE good leaders, but I believe that being dominant has little to say about your leadership abilities.

FHky

edited to add:

Let me even throw some more wood onto the fire.  I think in a D/s relationship, it's entirely possible that a submissive can be the leader of the dyad or relationship.  In fact,  I'd even hazard a guess that it isn't uncommon at all.  And that the dominant is still the dominant, and the submissive still submissive.



< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 7/29/2006 2:34:36 PM >

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 2:47:41 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
So, what do you see as the difference between the two? Any?

Leadership is a position of direction, which often includes authority.

Dominance, in Ds terms, is a position of authority, which may or may not be the leader.  Many doms let their slaves take the lead in particular aspects of the relationship, it's call delegation.

And plenty of subs and slaves make fabulous leaders.

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 3:38:43 PM   
kisshou


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Status: offline 		A person with a dominant personality is a natural leader

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 3:53:12 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		I have read the postings thus far and can see and agree for the most part with what has been said.So hence I will just add that I would prefer leadership and dominance in a Dominant ,for to me while they can be interchangeable, having the 2 is certainly more desireable....Tempting

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 4:26:31 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		A true leader can motivate people to "want" to follow him.

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 4:27:54 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Leadership is an organizational trait....and I think Warren Bennis has said all that need be said on that topic....

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0787909432/104-5912125-7183121?v=glance&n=283155



< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/29/2006 5:08:30 PM >

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 4:44:45 PM   
DoctorDubious


Posts: 267
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


And plenty of subs and slaves make fabulous leaders.


Amen sister Albatross!

D/s is not the same as leader/follower... not at all!

Humans are mammals.
Humans are mammals that are herd animals,
with similar social structures to all other herd-mammals.
Micrsoft is a herd, the Republican Party is a herd,
and your city is an unruly herd as well.

Herd animals organize their social structure around leaders.

The vast majority of humans are silently begging to be lead.
Chafing under their current leadership,
but begging... begging for good leadership.

*************************

But, the D/s relatiionship, for me,
is not really much related to conventional leadership,
you know, the conventional leadership of a boss,
or your mayor, or the CEO of IBM, or a general in the army...
(do you think Nelson Mandela was a dom? ... no way)

and everything to do with special,
spiritual quest of 2 souls to connect
and dance in the intimate energies
where the power is exchanged NOT by biological destiny,
but by 2 strong people, with minds and hearts and bodies...

One explores Yin.... passive, dark, feminine-energy,
downward-seeking, receptive, fertile, moon,
night, accepting, surrendering.... submissive/submission...
.... think of how water flows

One explores Yang .... active, light, male-energy,
upward-seeking, leading, fertilizing, sun
day, questing, dominance/domination
..... think of how fire burns

Yes, it's superficially like leadership, but look more carefully....

These are complimentary opposites, each needs the other.
no yin no yang, no yang, no yin.

Most importantly, it's not a static thing...
it's a moving shifting dynamic of the two forces.....
(Yes, Virginia, submission is a force, but a subtle one)

DD
PS... also, it's a helluva lotta kinky twisted fun playing her.
Maybe all that yin/yang BS is just as excuse to have her my way... eh?




edited to add Mandela,
who I think makes the contrast clear....
also, think of Mother Theresa,
who led by humble service to the poor.

< Message edited by DoctorDubious -- 7/29/2006 5:01:17 PM >

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 4:46:29 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Oops. Ignore that last post. I cannot believe I actually posted a post attached to the wrong thread (but I did). Sorry. Please ignore.

Doctor D: I think that's a lovely definiton of the "dance" of D/s between two people.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/29/2006 5:26:05 PM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
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And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 5:19:31 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

A person with a dominant personality is a natural leader


Ahhh, kisshou, I've got to totally disagree, which was my point.  I've known LOTS of "dominants" and dominant personalities that couldn't lead the way out of a wet paperbag.

I am making the contrast stark, although there is some inherent "cross over" between dominance and leadership.  In other words, reinforcing characteristics.

I don't know your experience with leadership,  but leadership and dominance shares certain traits, just like intelligence and leadership.  An intelligent leader is considered a good thing.  But there are good, solid leaders - who are of average intelligence.  Intelligence by itself is no indicator of leadership.  Dominance by itself is no indication of leadership.

But a intelligent, dominant leader is still a good thing.  Just understand while there is a relationship between them, they are not the same thing.

FHky





< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 7/29/2006 5:26:42 PM >

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 5:25:19 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Does anybody else think the intangible element of charisma matters more in Leadership than in Dominance? I do. But I guess on some level I am still equating the term  Dominance with something including more blunt force on some level, than I am imagining Leadership does.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/29/2006 5:28:46 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 5:28:32 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Does anybody else think the intangible element of charisma matters more in Leadership than in Dominance? I do. But I guess on some level I am still equating the term  Dominance as including more blunt force on some level, than Leadership does.

- Susan


Susan, I have to admit both of your post I have found spot on in this thread.  The concept of charisma is, I feel, a critical part of effective leadership.

FHky


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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 5:32:21 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks. Yes, I do think someone could be Dominant, and force me to do something, whether I wanted to do it, or not, simply because they are Dominant (by virtue of whatever; Our D/s "agreement", they are bigger, stronger - whatever).

But - to me, Leadership implies someone being led (not forced) and to want to be led, I'd have to want to follow the leader...and to get me to want to do that, they'd have to have some attractive personality trait, etc.

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/29/2006 5:33:03 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 8:08:46 PM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		I have great leadership skills. I can inspire great deals of people to do things that move towards common goals. I have zero dominance ability nor desire in my being. My leadership comes from knowing the way to steer the boat, not from a desire to control the crew.

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