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RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 9:11:09 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Dominance is a dynamic for managing power effectively.

Leadership is charting it's course.

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 9:12:56 PM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		I've been told that I have good leadership skills, though I'd have to clarify that assessment with the observation that I have the ability to utilize one particular leadership method effectively. My chosen style of leadership is one of cooperative encouragement and positive reinforcement. I'm able to lead well because I don't try to lead in an area where I might lack strength and recognized expertise.

However, I'm not dominant. In fact, I'm not the least bit comfortable being in a position of authority. It's something I battle with every day in my professional life. Though my position is one of power, I prefer to meet people on equal footing. My leadership is generally accepted because my approach is non-threatening... people end up following me without recognizing that they are being led.

Because this type of leadership is "quiet" and unassuming, I suspect that many intelligent submissives employ this social skill... perhaps not even realizing they are leading. ;)

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/29/2006 10:36:38 PM   
DoctorDubious


Posts: 267
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Does anybody else think the intangible element of charisma matters more in Leadership than in Dominance? I do.

But I guess on some level I am still equating the term  Dominance with something including more blunt force on some level, than I am imagining Leadership does.

- Susan



Dear S... and all........

Re: charisma.
Sure, charisma matters if you are thinking about
leadership like in political sense... of mass-market vote getting.

But you would not think of charisma for Bill Gates leadership,
and he's been a brilliant leader of Microsoft, right?

And charisma would not have sprung to the lips of anyone
describing the war-time leadership of George Patton,
though he is thought of as a great wartime leader.

Now......... about charisma in D/s relations.
I'm totally sure that the sub will surrender
more fully, more quickly, more easily
to a Dom/Domme  who charms her/him
than the crude blunt-force dom you seem to be speaking about.


RE: blunt force

I can only speak from my own experience,
but a wonderful woman recently told me
that surrender can only be given.... never taken ...  at the start.

I agree 100% with that statement, that surrender must be given,
and after that... and in a continuing relationship... 
only then the dom takes, demands, & forces.

If the domination is primarily "blunt force"
you have torture and rape instead of bondage and kinky-sex.
Same actions.... different contexts.... different level of pure force.

Force without consent is not, IMHO, what dom/sub and BDSM are about.

And, doesn't charm, attraction, connection, and yes, charisma....
.... don't they contribute a great deal to the D/s dynamic? 

I certainly think so!

DD

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 2:23:18 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Doctor D: Good observation on your part. I am not meaning to imply by my answer that my estimation of what constitutes effective Dominance is merely blunt force, or that it does not involve Leadership in the micro-cosmic sense (although that is probably what it implied, to some folks). What that means (to me) is - I might be able to be Dominated by someone who lacked leadership skills, but I wouldn't probably enjoy it a lot. I'd prefer I guess, to be led, and then (consequently) Dominated because I'd been led (or maybe both, simultaneously).

I was trying to discern for myself what I view as the general difference between the two ideas at the most basic level - and for me, that was/is the difference. Many Dominants I am sure possess wonderful leadership sklls. And some I am sure, do not. My first definition probably does not jibe with what many seem to view as a bdsm definition of Dominance. I was just defining the word for myself, and not necessarily in a bdsm context (although I realize it might have made more sense to do so).

However, I am thinking now that (to me) - *Leadership skills don't require one to be Dominant, as losttreasure and little sarbonn so effectively pointed out.
But - being an effective Dominant might well require a person to possess decent Leadership skills.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/30/2006 3:03:48 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to DoctorDubious)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 3:46:44 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Re: Dominance in a bdsm context. Maybe this does not always require Leadership skills (some submissives and slaves might not care if a Dominant possesses these).

For myself, regardless of how gently or roughly someone might display their Dominant personality, I know there is a difference between someone who has a truly warm heart with my best interests there (or potential for that) with perhaps just a few rough edges, and a posuer.

And, at the risk of sounding not humble (I am usually pretty humble, believe it or not)  I feel I have great instincts, too - I can sniff out the difference between the two almost every time (although it might not be obvious - in fact, I am sure it's not obvious). 

That difference (for me) then would simply become the difference between doing what someone wants because they are simply insisting I do it, (which I can and will do), or doing it because I truly respect them and, on some level,  want to follow their commands, because I feel I am (apparently) being effectively led by that person. 

My first and only Dominant had effective Leadership skills. I can tell the difference between someone who has them, and someone who doesn't. I can't put my finger on exactly how, but I know I can do this (and yes, it does involve subjective judgment on my part). 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/30/2006 4:09:12 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 5:56:25 AM   
AnAtlantaDom


Posts: 98
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		I will concede, to FirmHand, that in the technical definations of Leadership & Doninant(ance) you are absolutely correct.  The point I was trying to make, & has been made in several other posts, was that for a D/s relationship to be, IMO, effective & long term the Dom/me needs to be a Leader as you you so effectivly defined.  Although it's not manditory. 
 
A strong leader who is also a Dominant should find it easier & be more effective within the relationship.  I too have seen D/s relationships where the submissive is or becomes the leader in the relationship.  They has been give that "right" by the Dominant to ensure the household is running smoothly.  The submissive used this leadership to enhance the TOTAL enjoyment & pleasure in that relationship, both in the 'nilla & kinky aspects.
 
 

(in reply to OnTheLeval)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 7:16:28 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		In answer to the OP - sorta.
 
Anyone can aquire - and utilize - leadership skills.  Regardless of sexual preferences, anyone can in fact be a "born" leader or "natural" leader - having greater numbers of the skills necessary for effective leadership, and the ability to utilize and employ those qualities on a subconscious level.  Organization, delegation, the capacity to make command decisions without hesitation, the capacity and ability to draw others into cooperative effort towards a common goal, the ability to avoid alienating those under direction - those are all qualities of what I personally consider good leadership skills.  Those are all skills which I have developed, and which I do employ in day to day life to achieve my ends.  (They're almost nauseatingly similar to a lot of the skills necessary for parenting.)
 
The difference between straight up leadership  and dominance is one of Desire.
 
A leader may or may not actually desire to be the one in charge. He or she may or may not have any desire to exert the control that their authority AS leader grants to them.  They do so, however, to accomplish a task in an orderly fashion, going from point A to point B with (hopefully) the fewest difficulties and setbacks.
 
A dominant Desires Control. A Dominant seeks out that position of Authority over someone else, relishes it, revels in it - perhaps even Thrives only when they have it.  If a dominant displays leadership qualities specifically, it is just as likely because he or she has learned over time that greater amounts of control can be effeciently and effectively garnered from employing organization, consistancy, delegation of responcibility, and personal effort towards the common goal they share with the person(s) they are leading within a relationship.
 
While the two (leadership and dominance) are compatible - and even complimentary - they are not mutually necessary at any point in time.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to AnAtlantaDom)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 7:29:39 AM   
AnAtlantaDom


Posts: 98
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		Very well, intelligently, & concisely said Rhi.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 8:23:10 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I've been told that I have good leadership skills, though I'd have to clarify that assessment with the observation that I have the ability to utilize one particular leadership method effectively. My chosen style of leadership is one of cooperative encouragement and positive reinforcement. I'm able to lead well because I don't try to lead in an area where I might lack strength and recognized expertise.

However, I'm not dominant. In fact, I'm not the least bit comfortable being in a position of authority. It's something I battle with every day in my professional life. Though my position is one of power, I prefer to meet people on equal footing. My leadership is generally accepted because my approach is non-threatening... people end up following me without recognizing that they are being led.

Because this type of leadership is "quiet" and unassuming, I suspect that many intelligent submissives employ this social skill... perhaps not even realizing they are leading. ;)


Excellent point - leadership takes skill and doesn't require the need of dominance. Many subs are leaders like you stated, and because of their submissive natures will have their own "unassuming" way of gently leading.  i am sure many can relate to having to follow someone's leadership on the job where they use the more "dominant" approach. How many people have heard them called an a****** behind their backs? 

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 10:07:04 AM   
denika


Posts: 619
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Excellent point - leadership takes skill and doesn't require the need of dominance. Many subs are leaders like you stated, and because of their submissive natures will have their own "unassuming" way of gently leading.  i am sure many can relate to having to follow someone's leadership on the job where they use the more "dominant" approach. How many people have heard them called an a****** behind their backs? 



Well stated, Leadership isn't an automatice mantle dropped onto anyone who calls them selves a Dominant.  A Good leader knows when to lead and when to follow. Charisma plays a part as well, as does self confidence. No one is going to turn to someone who is 'wishy-washy' for lack of a better term (with exeption to our politicions, who just have great speech writers *s*)
Not all leaders are Dom tho. In my line of work I lead, others look to me for desiscion to be made and to know when to step in and take charge. I'm not a Domme nor am I even a switch.  There are some things that  I know I excell at and to be  a strong leader  in those instances I feel make me a better person and a better submissive.


denika

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 10:47:11 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I had a C.O. (Commanding Officer) in the USCG once who was a "Mustang". That is he enlisted and went up through the ranks and became a "Full Bird" Captain.
He just happened to have come from my home town and his cousin was good friends with my family.
He went to Malden Catholic, a *very* good high school in the Boston area!
When he took command of the ship I was on, his reputation as one of the best C.O.s preceded him and we were all excited and happy that he was comming aboard.
He was what you'd call an "active" C.O. often visiting various parts of the ship and talking to crew members on a one on one basis, telling jokes and activly seeking ideas as to how to do things better.
And he had one hell of a sense of humor too!
Once in Boston a C.G. Commander was caught taking pictures of his subordinate female sailors. Nude, in his office. This had evidently been going on for quite some time it was found out in the ensuing investigation. It was all over the news and on the front pages of the newspapers.
One time at the "All Hands Club" the bar for all enlisted and Officers, about a month later our Capt. was in uniform and there were a bunch of us in there.
Someone had a camera on the bar.
The Capt walked over, picked up the camera in full uniform, pointed it at a female in uniform, told her to take her coat off halfway and announced loudly to everyone; "HEY! What's THIS remind you of?"
We were PISSING ourselves laughing!!!
But, this Capt. also "knew his shit" too as they say in Sailor parlance.
He knew his ship and his crew inside-out!
Whenever anyone had a problem he wanted to know about it.
It was very obvious that he really cared about his crew!
I heard that he passed away last year in Florida.
We LOVED sailing with him to a man! I could tell you stories for hours about him!
Now, I've also had Captains who attended the Academy, had Master's degrees in Engineering and you'd hardly ever see them. They'd stay in their offices or cabins and never got involved with the crew unless they had to. No talking, no feedback, no nothing.
No people skills whatsoever.
I think leadership is an inate quality.
You either have it or you don't.
It's just not something that you can "learn" at Harvard Business School.

(in reply to denika)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 12:08:39 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Popeye, nice, from one former miltary man to another.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 12:47:08 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Steel, Affirmative!
Which branch?

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 1:08:08 PM   
marksl


Posts: 42
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I don't see the connection. I known Dom/mes who were loud arrogant and all round Domly but coulden't lead themselves most of the time. 

(in reply to littlesarbonn)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 1:10:34 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		But I'll bet some of them were convinced they could....

(in reply to marksl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 6:16:54 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

But I'll bet some of them were convinced they could....


Not some ... most.

FHky


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 7:25:08 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I may as well repeat myself.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 7:30:37 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		It says: "Superior Dominants have the capacity to lead, which goes way beyond reacting."

From the cloudboy archives, Vol. X.

And well worth repeating. So do superior submissives, my friend (yourself included, in my opinion, I might add). Please allow me to be un-humble, on your behalf. Thanks. And no, I am not looking for anyone to just say it back to me.
I meant it. Don't be embarrassed, please - because it's true. 

*Of course, I do realize this thread was about Dominance and Dominants, and not really about submissives. But losttreasure and little sarbonn covered the idea that submissives can lead as well, I think. So - I guess submissives aren't gonna be
Dominant. Well, thats okay - makes sense to me.... 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/30/2006 7:52:57 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 7:52:50 PM   
BuxomGoddess714


Posts: 91
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: So.California
Status: offline 		A screaming child will Dominate the environment if the adults are weak enough (submissive, not in control) to allow this.  That child has Dominated that situation but is lacking Leadership qualities.  

Someone with "charisma", charm and manipulation can control weak and easily lead creatures without true Leadership qualities thru pure BS and confusion.  Dominance implies superiority, and I do not classify tricks or mind games as signs of a superior being.  It is signs of a low form of life.  Drug addicts and street people develop charisma as survival skills.  Its not something by itself to use for power, just like Beauty or Sex, you better back it up with something Real.

A true Leader who also is Dominant, will draw people to them with their Charismatic personality, charm, good looks and then back it up with wisdon, integrity, respect, honesty, conern for others, strength and true Leadership.  Some of the best Leaders I know (and truest Doms) are quiet, confident Men.  A sign of a good Leader is having the right support system around You.  Some Leaders lack charm, beauty and charisma.  Thats what PR people are for.

Blessings,
Goddess

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Leadership and Dominance - 7/30/2006 7:55:11 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Wow, Buxom Goddess, that's a really great bunch of thoughts, and so well expressed. And I think you are absolutely right. Great post, I think!

- Susan 

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to BuxomGoddess714)
Profile   Post #: 40
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