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Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 11:58:58 AM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2815
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline 		OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 12:50:46 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 1:38:57 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.


not even, poligamy, sacred prostitution, sharia laws, human sacrifices??

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 2:02:35 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.


not even, poligamy, sacred prostitution, sharia laws, human sacrifices??

We have gone over this before. Prostitution is an illegal business in 49 states. Not relevant to religion. Sharia laws violate every aspect of the Constitution so allowing it would be negating the reason you pretend that anyone favoring freedom of religion would favor it. (Sharia laws prohibit freedom of religion so you can't support both freedom of religion and Sharia Law). But I'll bet that sounded good in your head. Murder is also prohibited and religion does not excuse it. Causing actual harm to someone because of religion is not never has been and never should be condoned.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 2:05:29 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Causing actual harm to someone because of religion is not never has been and never should be condoned.



Uh-oh. The issue of abortion beckons ....

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 2:07:12 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.


not even, poligamy, sacred prostitution, sharia laws, human sacrifices??

People are already in court over polygamy. If gay marriage is legal why not polygamy. If I were married to a bi woman wouldn't anti polygamy laws violate her rights if we wanted to marry another bi woman?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 2:42:05 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.

Maybe I'm just pointing out the obvious or restating what someone else has already said but there's also a line that can probably be drawn between a business that is a sole proprietorship and one that is incorporated. Even though it may be wrong (and damaging) for a business to deny service to any particular group of people, if a person operating as a sole proprietor wants to avoid trading with anyone you're going to be hard pressed to prove it's discrimination unless you can establish a pattern of behavior or they actually admit their discrimination. You simply cannot compel someone to do business with you if they don't want to. But a corporation like Wal-Mart for instance, is far too large and does too much business with the general public for even one instance of discrimination to go easily unnoticed.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 2:56:04 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.
But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."
Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.


So, shopping at a particular place is a "civil right?" That's pretty interesting.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 3:06:38 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.
But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."
Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.


So, shopping at a particular place is a "civil right?" That's pretty interesting.



It is interesting how many things are seen as "rights" let alone "civil rights."

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 3:24:11 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business


I am. So if we can do the mirror test on this point, so you think a person must ignore their religious belief in order to do business in America, land of the free and home of the brave. Kind of put it on the shelf and pretend it does not exist in order to be a business person. Or what about this, if you are religious you cannot have a business in America. Yes, lets get down to basics here. I like basics. Truth tends to be very basic whereas one must cloud things up with a lot of smoke to make falsehood seem like truth.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 4:26:30 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2815
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.


not even, poligamy, sacred prostitution, sharia laws, human sacrifices??

We have gone over this before. Prostitution is an illegal business in 49 states. Not relevant to religion. Sharia laws violate every aspect of the Constitution so allowing it would be negating the reason you pretend that anyone favoring freedom of religion would favor it. (Sharia laws prohibit freedom of religion so you can't support both freedom of religion and Sharia Law). But I'll bet that sounded good in your head. Murder is also prohibited and religion does not excuse it. Causing actual harm to someone because of religion is not never has been and never should be condoned.


Actual harm? Is that like legitimate rape? When people discriminate, it causes ACTUAL harm. It is certainly condoned in many states.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 4:39:56 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2815
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business


I am. So if we can do the mirror test on this point, so you think a person must ignore their religious belief in order to do business in America, land of the free and home of the brave. Kind of put it on the shelf and pretend it does not exist in order to be a business person. Or what about this, if you are religious you cannot have a business in America. Yes, lets get down to basics here. I like basics. Truth tends to be very basic whereas one must cloud things up with a lot of smoke to make falsehood seem like truth.


Yes... IGNORE IT. IF it involves discriminating against members of the public. If your religious beliefs direct you to discriminate (e.g. can't even put icing on a cake and sell it to someone), then you have no business being in business.
As a private citizen (NOT serving the public as a "Public Accommodation") you can discriminate against who you damn well please (and don't need to give an explanation)

That was settled in the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, and codified SPECIFICALLY to "Public Accommodations" in the 1964 Civil Rights Act (Title II).


Take Dan Cathy for example (President and COO of Chick-FIl-A). He is vehemently anti-gay. He says hateful things about gays all the time as an individual. When he runs his business, he employs gays at his restaurant and treats them with dignity and respect. He serves ALL customers equally. If a lesbian came into a Chick-Fil-A and said she wanted 20 orders to feed the crew of people that are getting her venue ready for her gay wedding, they would say "GREAT, We will get them right out to you"

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 4:44:25 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2815
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.
But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."
Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.


So, shopping at a particular place is a "civil right?" That's pretty interesting.



No, but the ability to go into a store and buy a widget at a store that sells widgets, without being told "I won't serve you, but I will serve everyone else" is.

So says:

1) My humble opinion
2) The Civil Rights Act of 1964
3) The plethora of local CRA's out there that include "Public Accommodations" clauses

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 5:11:09 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.
But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."
Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.


So, shopping at a particular place is a "civil right?" That's pretty interesting.



No, but the ability to go into a store and buy a widget at a store that sells widgets, without being told "I won't serve you, but I will serve everyone else" is.

So says:

1) My humble opinion
2) The Civil Rights Act of 1964
3) The plethora of local CRA's out there that include "Public Accommodations" clauses


Try . . . going to a store that sells pre-made widgets and also designs widgets and be told, "I do not want to design that widget."

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 5:14:19 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.


not even, poligamy, sacred prostitution, sharia laws, human sacrifices??

We have gone over this before. Prostitution is an illegal business in 49 states. Not relevant to religion. Sharia laws violate every aspect of the Constitution so allowing it would be negating the reason you pretend that anyone favoring freedom of religion would favor it. (Sharia laws prohibit freedom of religion so you can't support both freedom of religion and Sharia Law). But I'll bet that sounded good in your head. Murder is also prohibited and religion does not excuse it. Causing actual harm to someone because of religion is not never has been and never should be condoned.


so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 5:36:21 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		you are maybe making that sound like a bad thing?

"regulating" sounds too narrow and intimately interactive so maybe that's not quite the right word choice. I would call it perhaps rendering some aspects of certain religions illegal under civil law for the "promotion of the common good."

do you want all religions to be able to engage in all their practices if some of those practices were contrary to the common good?

and boy the fun of that question is---interpreting it.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 5:46:58 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.
But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."
Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

So, shopping at a particular place is a "civil right?" That's pretty interesting.

No, but the ability to go into a store and buy a widget at a store that sells widgets, without being told "I won't serve you, but I will serve everyone else" is.


What's the difference, then? It's not a civil right for me to walk into Widgets 'R' Us to buy something, but it's a civil right for me to walk into Widgets 'R' Us and expect to be able to buy something?!?

quote:

So says:
1) My humble opinion
2) The Civil Rights Act of 1964
3) The plethora of local CRA's out there that include "Public Accommodations" clauses


Right, and here we have a disagreement on what constitutes a "civil right," much like we don't agree that Title II of that 1964 CRA probably isn't needed anymore.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 5:52:04 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours


It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 6:36:05 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2815
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.
But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."
Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

So, shopping at a particular place is a "civil right?" That's pretty interesting.

No, but the ability to go into a store and buy a widget at a store that sells widgets, without being told "I won't serve you, but I will serve everyone else" is.


What's the difference, then? It's not a civil right for me to walk into Widgets 'R' Us to buy something, but it's a civil right for me to walk into Widgets 'R' Us and expect to be able to buy something?!?

quote:

So says:
1) My humble opinion
2) The Civil Rights Act of 1964
3) The plethora of local CRA's out there that include "Public Accommodations" clauses


Right, and here we have a disagreement on what constitutes a "civil right," much like we don't agree that Title II of that 1964 CRA probably isn't needed anymore.




Damn, DS!!! Stop being right! There is no difference. If a "Public Accommodation" is open to the public, then I have a right to shop there AND to buy whatever they are selling.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Madison on Freedom of Religion - 7/5/2015 6:42:26 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2815
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.
But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."
Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.


So, shopping at a particular place is a "civil right?" That's pretty interesting.



No, but the ability to go into a store and buy a widget at a store that sells widgets, without being told "I won't serve you, but I will serve everyone else" is.

So says:

1) My humble opinion
2) The Civil Rights Act of 1964
3) The plethora of local CRA's out there that include "Public Accommodations" clauses


Try . . . going to a store that sells pre-made widgets and also designs widgets and be told, "I do not want to design that widget."


If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.

However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 20
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