quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

OK... Madison, during the revolution, was very much in favor of freedom oF religion, in the narrow context of Christian religious sects. He actually called for public officials to publicly affirm their Christianity.

But he was full of contradictions. Read the wording he proposed in the First Amendment:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."


Not a big fan of using one's religious beliefs to deny service to others while operating a public business.

That wouldn't cover the case you are alluding to but don't want to talk about.
He also wouldn't want the government to step in and tell people which religious beliefs are "proper" and which aren't. That could just as easily be interpreted to say that because my beliefs are different from yours doesn't mean I can require you to do something that violates yours rather than do business with someone who has no moral objection to what I want.

not even, poligamy, sacred prostitution, sharia laws, human sacrifices??

We have gone over this before. Prostitution is an illegal business in 49 states. Not relevant to religion. Sharia laws violate every aspect of the Constitution so allowing it would be negating the reason you pretend that anyone favoring freedom of religion would favor it. (Sharia laws prohibit freedom of religion so you can't support both freedom of religion and Sharia Law). But I'll bet that sounded good in your head. Murder is also prohibited and religion does not excuse it. Causing actual harm to someone because of religion is not never has been and never should be condoned.

Actual harm? Is that like legitimate rape? When people discriminate, it causes ACTUAL harm. It is certainly condoned in many states.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

So your answer is "Free Market"???

Let's say, you are nearly out of gas on the highway (I15 through the Mojave Desert), and I own the only gas station in town (and the local towing company). You pull into my station, and I shut your pump off, and state through the intercom "Sorry, we don't serve Libertarians". It is against my religious beliefs." You call AAA and they dispatch MJ's towing to bring you enough gas to get to the next town. The tow truck driver smiles and is JUST about to help you, before identifying you as Libertarian and driving off.

You call AAA back to complain and ask for an alternate Tow company. The AAA agent replies "There is no other tow company. And it serves you right, you dirty Libertarian!"

Let's say, you are out with your co-workers for lunch (party of 7). The restaurant owner singles you out as a Libertarian, and has his bouncers escort you out of the restaurant (stating that it is against the restaurant's religious beliefs)


That's ok... Because there is a free market?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

So your answer is "Free Market"???

Let's say, you are nearly out of gas on the highway (I15 through the Mojave Desert), and I own the only gas station in town (and the local towing company). You pull into my station, and I shut your pump off, and state through the intercom "Sorry, we don't serve Libertarians". It is against my religious beliefs." You call AAA and they dispatch MJ's towing to bring you enough gas to get to the next town. The tow truck driver smiles and is JUST about to help you, before identifying you as Libertarian and driving off.

You call AAA back to complain and ask for an alternate Tow company. The AAA agent replies "There is no other tow company. And it serves you right, you dirty Libertarian!"

Let's say, you are out with your co-workers for lunch (party of 7). The restaurant owner singles you out as a Libertarian, and has his bouncers escort you out of the restaurant (stating that it is against the restaurant's religious beliefs)


That's ok... Because there is a free market?

How would he single DS out as a libertarian?
Right DS would have to be rubbing his nose in it.
This is a silly example far beneath you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

looks like you have a parallel thread lol

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4821901

some things for you to respond to on this matter in your other thread

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

A wedding cake, however, is not "just a basic service."

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

So your answer is "Free Market"???
Let's say, you are nearly out of gas on the highway (I15 through the Mojave Desert), and I own the only gas station in town (and the local towing company). You pull into my station, and I shut your pump off, and state through the intercom "Sorry, we don't serve Libertarians". It is against my religious beliefs." You call AAA and they dispatch MJ's towing to bring you enough gas to get to the next town. The tow truck driver smiles and is JUST about to help you, before identifying you as Libertarian and driving off.
You call AAA back to complain and ask for an alternate Tow company. The AAA agent replies "There is no other tow company. And it serves you right, you dirty Libertarian!"
Let's say, you are out with your co-workers for lunch (party of 7). The restaurant owner singles you out as a Libertarian, and has his bouncers escort you out of the restaurant (stating that it is against the restaurant's religious beliefs)
That's ok... Because there is a free market?

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

A wedding cake, however, is not "just a basic service."

From what I read, they were just asking for a cake with icing. And that THEY would further decorate the cake on their own. If I am misinformed, and they were asking the Kleins to use their creativity and artistry to design and develop a lesbian homosexual wedding cake, then I have to side with the Kleins on this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

A wedding cake, however, is not "just a basic service."

From what I read, they were just asking for a cake with icing. And that THEY would further decorate the cake on their own. If I am misinformed, and they were asking the Kleins to use their creativity and artistry to design and develop a lesbian homosexual wedding cake, then I have to side with the Kleins on this.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

So your answer is "Free Market"???

Let's say, you are nearly out of gas on the highway (I15 through the Mojave Desert), and I own the only gas station in town (and the local towing company). You pull into my station, and I shut your pump off, and state through the intercom "Sorry, we don't serve Libertarians". It is against my religious beliefs." You call AAA and they dispatch MJ's towing to bring you enough gas to get to the next town. The tow truck driver smiles and is JUST about to help you, before identifying you as Libertarian and driving off.

You call AAA back to complain and ask for an alternate Tow company. The AAA agent replies "There is no other tow company. And it serves you right, you dirty Libertarian!"

Let's say, you are out with your co-workers for lunch (party of 7). The restaurant owner singles you out as a Libertarian, and has his bouncers escort you out of the restaurant (stating that it is against the restaurant's religious beliefs)


That's ok... Because there is a free market?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

So your answer is "Free Market"???
Let's say, you are nearly out of gas on the highway (I15 through the Mojave Desert), and I own the only gas station in town (and the local towing company). You pull into my station, and I shut your pump off, and state through the intercom "Sorry, we don't serve Libertarians". It is against my religious beliefs." You call AAA and they dispatch MJ's towing to bring you enough gas to get to the next town. The tow truck driver smiles and is JUST about to help you, before identifying you as Libertarian and driving off.
You call AAA back to complain and ask for an alternate Tow company. The AAA agent replies "There is no other tow company. And it serves you right, you dirty Libertarian!"
Let's say, you are out with your co-workers for lunch (party of 7). The restaurant owner singles you out as a Libertarian, and has his bouncers escort you out of the restaurant (stating that it is against the restaurant's religious beliefs)
That's ok... Because there is a free market?

Anti-Libertarianism is against a religion?

1. I'd be fucked if you wouldn't sell me gas. Of course, you could also charge me out the nose, since I have no other options (ie. no competition for you).

2. AAA would be on the hook to get me towed. I paid for the service already. No stipulations were made for anti-Libertarian theology. By the terms of the contract, I could sue for breach of contract, and, I'd have quite a tidy sum coming my way.

3. I'm sure there would be ramifications for the restaurant's customer base over it. A "scene" would be made. Information on my mis-treatment would disseminate, and the Market would take care of things. There are other places to eat. Next time, if my co-workers value dining with me, they'll choose a different location (they probably would choose that one specifically, if we're going for reality! )

I do believe in a more Free Market. I believe in sound monetary policy, and letting The Market take care of things like setting interest rates. It's not as quick as government intervention, but, in the end, it'll get to the right place, as opposed to the distortions created by government intervention, resulting in market failures (linked solely ensure intended meaning of the phrase).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

So your answer is "Free Market"???
Let's say, you are nearly out of gas on the highway (I15 through the Mojave Desert), and I own the only gas station in town (and the local towing company). You pull into my station, and I shut your pump off, and state through the intercom "Sorry, we don't serve Libertarians". It is against my religious beliefs." You call AAA and they dispatch MJ's towing to bring you enough gas to get to the next town. The tow truck driver smiles and is JUST about to help you, before identifying you as Libertarian and driving off.
You call AAA back to complain and ask for an alternate Tow company. The AAA agent replies "There is no other tow company. And it serves you right, you dirty Libertarian!"
Let's say, you are out with your co-workers for lunch (party of 7). The restaurant owner singles you out as a Libertarian, and has his bouncers escort you out of the restaurant (stating that it is against the restaurant's religious beliefs)
That's ok... Because there is a free market?

Anti-Libertarianism is against a religion?
1. I'd be fucked if you wouldn't sell me gas. Of course, you could also charge me out the nose, since I have no other options (ie. no competition for you).
2. AAA would be on the hook to get me towed. I paid for the service already. No stipulations were made for anti-Libertarian theology. By the terms of the contract, I could sue for breach of contract, and, I'd have quite a tidy sum coming my way.
3. I'm sure there would be ramifications for the restaurant's customer base over it. A "scene" would be made. Information on my mis-treatment would disseminate, and the Market would take care of things. There are other places to eat. Next time, if my co-workers value dining with me, they'll choose a different location (they probably would choose that one specifically, if we're going for reality! )
I do believe in a more Free Market. I believe in sound monetary policy, and letting The Market take care of things like setting interest rates. It's not as quick as government intervention, but, in the end, it'll get to the right place, as opposed to the distortions created by government intervention, resulting in market failures (linked solely ensure intended meaning of the phrase).

Actually, (not sure if you are an AAA member. If you are, read your contract). There are tons of loopholes that basically say, "If none of our affiliated tow trucks are available, oh well, too bad for you." "You can hire your own tow company and pay them full rates (good luck with that in the example above), and, if you mail us a copy of the receipt we MAY reimburse you for $105 (of your $700 tow bill) in 6-8 weeks. Have a nice day :)" Of course they differ state to state.
You could explain to the person's supervisor (in the above example), and he/she would say, "We will try to help you, but the tow company out here just doesn't want to serve you. And no other companies will drive that far. Sorry. You are welcome to call them yourself."

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

A wedding cake, however, is not "just a basic service."

From what I read, they were just asking for a cake with icing. And that THEY would further decorate the cake on their own. If I am misinformed, and they were asking the Kleins to use their creativity and artistry to design and develop a lesbian homosexual wedding cake, then I have to side with the Kleins on this.

A quick search was futile in determining of all they wanted was cake with icing (as opposed to a fully decorated wedding cake). If you find the answer, then, please do post the link(s). If they were refused service on a basic service, like just selling a basic iced cake, then, I'd side opposed to the Kleins.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

A wedding cake, however, is not "just a basic service."

From what I read, they were just asking for a cake with icing. And that THEY would further decorate the cake on their own. If I am misinformed, and they were asking the Kleins to use their creativity and artistry to design and develop a lesbian homosexual wedding cake, then I have to side with the Kleins on this.

A quick search was futile in determining of all they wanted was cake with icing (as opposed to a fully decorated wedding cake). If you find the answer, then, please do post the link(s). If they were refused service on a basic service, like just selling a basic iced cake, then, I'd side opposed to the Kleins.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

A wedding cake, however, is not "just a basic service."

From what I read, they were just asking for a cake with icing. And that THEY would further decorate the cake on their own. If I am misinformed, and they were asking the Kleins to use their creativity and artistry to design and develop a lesbian homosexual wedding cake, then I have to side with the Kleins on this.

It is my understanding that you are mistaken. BTW the Kleins didn't refuse to serve gays, they just refused to make a wedding cake. And the state pretended that they wouldn't serve gays because at the time gay marriage was not legal in Oregon. The people who vandalized their van, on the other hand, are bigots and did real harm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
so it seems you agree the governament can regulate some religions just not yours

It would seem that Sharia Law also violates many of the "inalienable rights" of Man. Government is all about protecting the inalienable rights. The natural right to exercise your religion extend as far as possible, unless they infringe on the inalienable rights of another.

So your answer is "Free Market"???

Let's say, you are nearly out of gas on the highway (I15 through the Mojave Desert), and I own the only gas station in town (and the local towing company). You pull into my station, and I shut your pump off, and state through the intercom "Sorry, we don't serve Libertarians". It is against my religious beliefs." You call AAA and they dispatch MJ's towing to bring you enough gas to get to the next town. The tow truck driver smiles and is JUST about to help you, before identifying you as Libertarian and driving off.

You call AAA back to complain and ask for an alternate Tow company. The AAA agent replies "There is no other tow company. And it serves you right, you dirty Libertarian!"

Let's say, you are out with your co-workers for lunch (party of 7). The restaurant owner singles you out as a Libertarian, and has his bouncers escort you out of the restaurant (stating that it is against the restaurant's religious beliefs)


That's ok... Because there is a free market?

How would he single DS out as a libertarian?
Right DS would have to be rubbing his nose in it.
This is a silly example far beneath you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
If the widget is art, created by the artist him/herself, then I have no right to force the artist to create my art.
However, if all I want is cake with some icing on it (no real art, just a basic service on top of the pre-made widget), I have the right to not have the store owner pass moral judgment on the event during which I am using my widget, and refuse to sell me the widget.

A wedding cake, however, is not "just a basic service."