Zonie63
Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
yeh it is a bit long because it covers a lot of territory somewhat similar to a legal brief where it starts with general background and works it way toward the center of several fronts simultaneously. Unfortunately thats what it takes to explain the macro level of how all these dots connect.
Generally, I'm more inclined to read an article or text, rather than watch a video.
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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Yeh actually the old hippies were very close to taking down the government which is why MLK was assasinated. What happened is that the cia and fbi infiltrated the ranks of dissenters and some like MLK were simply killed and others taken to jail for anything that could be pinned on them.
I would not discount any possibility, although just to play devil's advocate here, it seems somewhat difficult to fathom that some elements in government would oppose MLK at that late date, years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act and over a decade after the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision. If the government was against the cause of civil rights which MLK was advocating, then they would have been against it from the very start, long before MLK became well-known.
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The move the matrix is great for showing the constructs of how it works. The woman in the red dress who morphs into an agent, demonstrating that your spouse coud be an agent and turn you in. Look at the mafia internal assinations, almost always it was your best most trusted that pulled the trigger, anyone can be an agent (working for these people) same way there.
I enjoyed The Matrix as a movie, and I've also read some perspectives that view it as an allegory for the government's operations against MLK (considering the song chosen for the closing credits). But betrayal, assassination, and other forms of treachery are very old and very much a part of politics. Learning the mechanics of "how it works" might be interesting but ultimately irrelevant.
Another interesting point about that trilogy is that those who thought they were "freedom fighters" and "dissenters" were actually falling into another system of control which still worked for the interests of the system - even though they thought they were fighting against it.
When it comes to movies, TV, and popular culture in general, one common theme that never really set well with me was the idea that the masses and the common people are helpless, inept, stupid, and just far too powerless to bring about any change in their society - unless they are led by some "blessed" and/or "chosen" individual to lead them - whether it's "The One" in The Matrix or a Jedi Knight or Chuck Norris or the "fastest gun west of the Pecos." Even The Matrix trilogy suggests that any kind of change would be impossible without the help of someone at the very top level of power, such as The Oracle. But that makes the role of "The One" somewhat meaningless, since if he was killed, all she'd have to do is program up another "One."
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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
I wont deny that I have heard some really dumb assed conspiracy theorists, but there are those who continually improve and those who simply repeat the same ignorant long disproved talking points.
The problem is they are just that powerful because people today have no soidarity. So much propaganda and it takes so much time to sort it all out, for some people a lifetime and other never get past base one.
And don't you find that interesting, in and of itself? All these people working individually, without any solidarity, yet mostly duplicating each other's efforts and making each other redundant, spending their entire lifetime and devoting all that time and energy to try to "prove" something that can't be proven? Sad thing is, even if they could prove any of these conspiracy theories, it wouldn't make a hill of beans of difference to those living in Peoria and Podunk.
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I will be the first to agree that corps are scum, however they are the tools of the very people who are raping the planet which is on a fast track to becoming one gigantic mob run everything.
And when looking over the grand scale of history, when have things ever been that much different?
I don't want to sound defeatist or overly cynical here, since history also shows some human progress and enlightened, righteous dissent against tyranny. Even if one could prove that there's some political gambit for total world domination in play, it wouldn't be the first time some megalomaniac or powerful group has tried to do something like that. Ultimately, they end up failing, since there has never really been that much solidarity among the mob. No empire is ever permanent.
Even still, as empires either crumble from within or are destroyed from without, it ends up leaving a lot of damage and misery in its wake. The problem with power amplified through human political systems is that humans can often be incompetent and/or driven more by emotion and ego rather than intellect. Politics itself has a track record of assassinations, war, terror - and those who take up arms against tyranny tend to adopt the same tactics as the tyrants they purport to fight against. If we're talking about people who would resort to murder and war to gain and keep power, then those who would fight them feel compelled to be just as viciously stubborn.
And that's the trap that we fall into. That's the real danger here, not any actual "conspiracy." Even if there is some sort of "grand conspiracy" at work, it doesn't actually mean that the "conspirators" really know what they're doing. To illustrate what I mean, if I was to assume that there was some elite "cabal" of powerful individuals secretly directing the actions of the US government, then I would still have cause to wonder whether these particular powerful individuals are truly smart enough to know the ramifications of what they're doing. I would wonder the same thing about those in power in pre-revolutionary France or Russia or the government of Germany before Hitler's rise to power. Just like Marie Antoinette, a lot of people in power have oftentimes been incredibly clueless and oblivious to the consequences of what they're doing.
When I look at the upper echelon and those with influence and power in this country, I don't see "conspirators" as much as I see an overabundance of "Marie Antoinettes." I don't fear those who already hold power, but I fear that their incompetence and oblivious myopia could lead to an upheaval in political power which could be even worse than what we're dealing with right now.
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Even the most honest people, none are privy to pristine information and make mistakes.
Then you have poser politics which is full of propagandists who muddy the water through their lies dissonance or strawmen and capitalize on honest peoples mistakes to poison the well by dismissing a whole plot over minutia errata.
A lot of the problem that I see with conspiracy theorists is that they try to convey a message as if they're investigative journalists or detectives trying to solve a "whodunit." They're not making any real political statements or offering anything substantially different from the prevailing ideology of our current political system.
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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
If the results are correct it does not raise much concern. Its when the results are 1/2 truths that is raises eyebrows. One common propaganda trick is to agree with someone arguing against the government about 90% then when the conversation gets to the most substantial fact condemn it. Of course you only see that from the more sophistocated posers, most who are hired to sway public opinion and its a well known fact there are hordes of them. If they can cause enough confusion people do not know what conclusions to draw and they are then paralysed until its too late.
It depends. I think there are those who might argue against the government but don't want to contribute to the atmosphere of a "witch hunt" compounded by excessive speculation often associated with conspiracy theories. One has to be able to prove who the "conspirators" are, as well as prove that they're guilty of a crime while still adhering to the rules of evidence and the principle of innocent until proven guilty. So, when folks like Joether ask for evidence and proof of wrongdoing, it's not a request to be taken lightly.
There's also an air of "scapegoating" associated with conspiracy theories which makes more than a few people uncomfortable. There's a history behind it which we need not go into here.
Then there might be those who have righteous grievances with the government but might feel that conspiracy theories are a distraction which cause more confusion and dissonance. It's an exercise in futility to offer speculation or make accusations which can not be adequately proven. For the sake of argument, it might be more productive to conditionally assume the "official story" to be true and then structure one's argument against the government based on the known and established facts which government has acknowledged. We don't really have to focus on blaming anyone or finding some sort of "scapegoat," as it might be more productive to focus on changing and restructuring the system so as to prevent the kinds of government abuses which might be alleged.
I think the system of Checks and Balances envisioned by our Founding Fathers was sound, but perhaps it needs some updating. They didn't create that system because they believed in any great conspiracy, but that they understood the fallibility of human nature and how power corrupts. But if there are loopholes or weaknesses in the system which could be exploited by unscrupulous individuals, then we have to consider shoring up those weaknesses.
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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Well they are dealing with and going up against people whos job it is to bring down nations countries and governments that will in fact murder anyone who stands in the way and break in and break up any brewing of solidarity.
They literally make the laws as they go, look at home grown terrorist. The government can scare the piss out of people about iraqs WMDs then say oops, which does fall under the definition of terrorist but no one prosecutes the government damned if one of us tried that.
Thats the problem, and its getting worse. It was individuals however they are taking out whole groups now by simply discrediting them. Fortunately people are very slowly getting smarter.
How many times have we heard the pejoratives? "Oh thats just a conspiracy 'theory'" for the same purposes, to poison the well so people do not look into it. In fact the cia coined it to aid in covering up the kennedy assassination. For those who have the tenacity to stick through the video much of how the government covers these things up are 'mob' tactics right down to killing someone totally innocent so they can switch bodies for autopsies!
Any surprise people are making government prove every i they dot and every t they cross. They have to because the government will slip in a lie by innuendo wherever they can, and that is a very good start, do away with presumptions, and summary judgment in court cases, because its always been and always will be a get out of jail free ticket for the perps!!!
Well, in the end, I don't suppose there are any perfect answers to any of this. Sometimes the villains win and the bad guys get away with it.
When it comes to the JFK assassination, even a 1978 congressional investigation concluded that there was a "probable conspiracy," but didn't really know much more than that. After Oliver Stone's JFK came out, the public debate over the assassination was revived and ultimately led to Congress authorizing the release of thousands of documents related to the assassination which had been previously withheld (although not all of them).
A lot of people may still believe that there was a conspiracy, but it happened so long ago that many don't see it as having any direct relevance in their lives. Or at least, it might be believed that it's a conspiracy we no longer need to worry about, since a lot has happened since the JFK assassination. J. Edgar Hoover eventually died, Nixon fell from power, the Vietnam War ended, and the cause of civil rights and equality really started gaining traction and making huge breakthroughs. Things were improving to the point that whatever possible objectives there might have been behind the JFK, RFK, or MLK murders - "whoever" may have been behind it for whatever cause - their plans were ultimately defeated.
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