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Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/8/2014 7:26:55 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		I've seen a bit of a misconception about non lethal self defense tools and thought I'd toss out some links for clarity.

A> A "Taser" fires a projectile. The original used gunpowder and was classed as a firearm by the ATF. Newer models are not classed as firearms. For history & legality see link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser

B> Stun guns are contact weapons. Some, like mine, are the size of a fat pen.

C> Pepper spray is not "mace". The concept is diluted by the face that the "Mace" brand also sells pepper spray for the consumer market and still makes the actual tear gas type Mace for law enforcement.

Details:
http://www.ipiu.org/forums/showthread.php?34762-Pepper-Spray-Laws-Versus-MACE

Pepper spray and stun guns are legal by federal law but state and local ordinances are more convoluted. e.g. Illinois requires the same registration requirements for firearms, stun guns, and pepper spray.

Overview of stun gun and pepper spray laws by state:
http://planetstungun.com/pages/stun-gun-laws
_____________________________________________________________

Now for the debating point.

Do you think that government should deny, limit, or regulate personal possession of non lethal self defense tools? Assume we are talking adults, please.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/8/2014 8:10:29 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Just me but the weapons that can cause permanent harm should be licensed... A taser in the face could do real damage... Stun guns used on the wrong person can kill. I would not make them illegal but would require some type of training with them. I noticed Illinois was one of the states that they were not legal... and that seems a little nuts considering conceal and carry is legal there now.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/8/2014 10:49:32 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I've seen a bit of a misconception about non lethal self defense tools and thought I'd toss out some links for clarity.

A> A "Taser" fires a projectile. The original used gunpowder and was classed as a firearm by the ATF. Newer models are not classed as firearms. For history & legality see link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser

B> Stun guns are contact weapons. Some, like mine, are the size of a fat pen.

C> Pepper spray is not "mace". The concept is diluted by the face that the "Mace" brand also sells pepper spray for the consumer market and still makes the actual tear gas type Mace for law enforcement.

Details:
http://www.ipiu.org/forums/showthread.php?34762-Pepper-Spray-Laws-Versus-MACE

Pepper spray and stun guns are legal by federal law but state and local ordinances are more convoluted. e.g. Illinois requires the same registration requirements for firearms, stun guns, and pepper spray.

Overview of stun gun and pepper spray laws by state:
http://planetstungun.com/pages/stun-gun-laws
_____________________________________________________________

Now for the debating point.

Do you think that government should deny, limit, or regulate personal possession of non lethal self defense tools? Assume we are talking adults, please.

Of course they should be allowed. I think they should have 2nd amendment protection
as it does not say firearms but arms.
They provide a (hopefully) non lethal option while protecting the right of self defense.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 4/8/2014 10:51:08 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/8/2014 11:26:08 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just me but the weapons that can cause permanent harm should be licensed... A taser in the face could do real damage... Stun guns used on the wrong person can kill. I would not make them illegal but would require some type of training with them. I noticed Illinois was one of the states that they were not legal... and that seems a little nuts considering conceal and carry is legal there now.

Butch

A pencil can cause permanent.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/8/2014 11:28:30 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just me but the weapons that can cause permanent harm should be licensed... A taser in the face could do real damage... Stun guns used on the wrong person can kill. I would not make them illegal but would require some type of training with them. I noticed Illinois was one of the states that they were not legal... and that seems a little nuts considering conceal and carry is legal there now.

Butch

A pencil can cause permanent damage.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 12:04:04 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
I've seen a bit of a misconception about non lethal self defense tools and thought I'd toss out some links for clarity.

A> A "Taser" fires a projectile. The original used gunpowder and was classed as a firearm by the ATF. Newer models are not classed as firearms. For history & legality see link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser

B> Stun guns are contact weapons. Some, like mine, are the size of a fat pen.

C> Pepper spray is not "mace". The concept is diluted by the face that the "Mace" brand also sells pepper spray for the consumer market and still makes the actual tear gas type Mace for law enforcement.

Details:
http://www.ipiu.org/forums/showthread.php?34762-Pepper-Spray-Laws-Versus-MACE

Pepper spray and stun guns are legal by federal law but state and local ordinances are more convoluted. e.g. Illinois requires the same registration requirements for firearms, stun guns, and pepper spray.

Overview of stun gun and pepper spray laws by state:
http://planetstungun.com/pages/stun-gun-laws
_____________________________________________________________

Now for the debating point.

Do you think that government should deny, limit, or regulate personal possession of non lethal self defense tools? Assume we are talking adults, please.

Of course they should be allowed. I think they should have 2nd amendment protection
as it does not say firearms but arms.
They provide a (hopefully) non lethal option while protecting the right of self defense.


Yeah, because the founding fathers had envision stun guns back in the 18th century.....

These are melee-like weapons. Using them correctly is not just a matter of standing in front of a motionless target and zapping it. It requires some self defense training just to effectively use melee weapons. Ever 'sword and board'? A stun gun and pepper spray is the same way.

Should stun guns and pepper spray be protected under the 2nd? No. Should someone be required to have a license for them? In so far as those that have previously been in trouble with the law (i.e. already shown to have broken serious laws). I do think it should be required to have 10-20 hours of self defense training, using the item in question.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 12:11:50 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Just me but the weapons that can cause permanent harm should be licensed... A taser in the face could do real damage... Stun guns used on the wrong person can kill. I would not make them illegal but would require some type of training with them. I noticed Illinois was one of the states that they were not legal... and that seems a little nuts considering conceal and carry is legal there now.

Butch

A pencil can cause permanent damage.


Using a pencil as a weapon in some states is considered an improvised (and illegal) weapon.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 8:43:03 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Just me but the weapons that can cause permanent harm should be licensed... A taser in the face could do real damage... Stun guns used on the wrong person can kill. I would not make them illegal but would require some type of training with them. I noticed Illinois was one of the states that they were not legal... and that seems a little nuts considering conceal and carry is legal there now.

Butch

A pencil can cause permanent damage.


Using a pencil as a weapon in some states is considered an improvised (and illegal) weapon.

Assaulting someone with or without a weapon is illegal in all states.
Do you think pencils should be licensed and registered?
That was the point I was making.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 8:49:45 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Ok then... Let's have a duel .... You get the pencil and I get the Taser.

We will stand at five paces..... You can even say go.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 9:28:30 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ok then... Let's have a duel .... You get the pencil and I get the Taser.

We will stand at five paces..... You can even say go.

Butch

Lets pretend you would live through it, lets even pretend that you win.
Today you could win if I was 10 years younger you would be dead before you
moved.
Does that mean that a person can't be killed with a pencil.
So we are back to my original position if anything that can cause permanent injury
should be registered and licensed means everything should be licensed and registered.
I have taken 20,000 volts and was still functioning.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 4/9/2014 9:29:54 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 10:04:39 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

if I was 10 years younger

You would be a short round target and ten years younger.

I have taken 20,000 volts and was still functioning.

Everyone loves to play with a tens unit.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 10:07:58 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

if I was 10 years younger

You would be a short round target and ten years younger.

I have taken 20,000 volts and was still functioning.

Everyone loves to play with a tens unit.



And involved in marshal arts
Industrial accedent

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 11:20:50 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just me but the weapons that can cause permanent harm should be licensed... A taser in the face could do real damage... Stun guns used on the wrong person can kill. I would not make them illegal but would require some type of training with them. I noticed Illinois was one of the states that they were not legal... and that seems a little nuts considering conceal and carry is legal there now.

Butch


Yes, make everything dangerous require a license.

Swimming is dangerous. License!
Working a machine shop.. License!
Operating a fork lift.. License!
Crossing the street.. License!

Funny, how even a product designed as a humane form of self defense, requires a license in the liberal mind.
Forget the fact that its defensive. Forget the fact thats its engineered to do less damage.

Of course its dangerous. Self defense means that there are parameters where someone might get hurt.
Whats next? A license to carry a big stick?
A license to carry a beer bottle?

What the fuck would make you people happy? Padding the world and putting little stickers on everything? Cause that what it would take -because everything in this world can hurt you.

How about you take some personal responsibility and learn how to identify and handle things you are reasonably going to face.

In other words. If you hurt someone because you picked up a baseball bat, then face your responsibility. And don't ask the world to put little stickers on all the risks of life.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 4/9/2014 11:36:37 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 12:41:18 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		FR,

I've had machine gun, shotgun, and handgun training, but all I own is pepper spray.

I've had other training, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 1:39:44 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Its really sort of sad we cant have a decent discussion on a topic like this, without the 'lunatic with guns' making several appearances here. I mean, seriously, the topic is on how we, members of society might handle these devices from a self defense, legal, and common sense points of view. That they have their uses. But they are not as versatile as say, firearms, nor quite as deadly. Yet, they are more useful than many other melee like weapons short of a katana!

Do we want crazy people to have these weapons? Of course not! So why do we allow them into the discussion?

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 2:38:26 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Its really sort of sad we cant have a decent discussion on a topic like this, without the 'lunatic with guns' making several appearances here. I mean, seriously, the topic is on how we, members of society might handle these devices from a self defense, legal, and common sense points of view. That they have their uses. But they are not as versatile as say, firearms, nor quite as deadly. Yet, they are more useful than many other melee like weapons short of a katana!

Do we want crazy people to have these weapons? Of course not! So why do we allow them into the discussion?

Why do we allow lunatics against guns to rant against guns when no one else is talking about them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 5:48:13 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Will my taser is 50,000... you will not win or stand with a pencil... 10 years younger or not...

ps... i was pretty quick as well...but a bit more than 10 years ago.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 5:51:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Will then with your thinking...why the hell have a licence for anything... Thinking, responsible, reasonable, especially grown up people understand that a dangerous weapon of choice should be regulated if made available to the public.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 5:51:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Will my taser is 50,000... you will not win or stand with a pencil... 10 years younger or not...

ps... i was pretty quick as well...but a bit more than 10 years ago.

Butch

Macho posturing aside do you deny that a pencil, or a solid pen can do serious damage?
Thus by your reasoning they need to be registered.
Along with scissors, steak knives, matches ...............

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Stun Guns & Tasers & Pepper Spray, Oh My - 4/9/2014 5:56:58 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I am having fun with your ridiculous notion that there is no difference in potential abuse and injury between a pencil and a taser. People wanting to defend themselves will not choose pencils to do it... they will choose a taser or stun gun or a hand gun. All should in my view be available but all should also be regulated and the proper training be provided and graded before the issuing of a licence.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 20
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