Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 11:24:28 AM)

I've heard this, all of my...soon to end life. (I am not that old in the chronically challenged way but am feeling older now) As a youngster, it was the American ideal, the American creed, all men (people) were created equal. Of course I knew before high school, that meant...equal in the eyes of the law...equal in politics...equal socially without even a civil culture of class that would have one unequal in opportunity. For those reasons, I was...patriotic. I am not so sure now.

I was once asked why ? Why am I 'patriotic' ? Is it because I think my country better simply because...I was born in it ? That question gave me pause. I honestly couldn't say that my country was any better because it being the place of my birth, so I relied upon...see above.

I once read that about policies in Russia for example, do the Russian people support their country and its policies ? The thought occurred when the writer suggested that well, 'I am sure, if they are a proud and patriotic Russian, then.....?'

Then the thought occurred to me, just what the hell does a Russian have to be patriotic about...living under Czarist dominion and authoritarian despotism of one sort or another, encroaching upon its neighbors militarily and thus violently, when it suited them and for over 200 years ? Doesn't sound like much to me. America may not be without sin but its weight and hegemony was a hell of lot more benign than true military imperialists. But even that seems to be changing.

So I ask you, how do you define...'patriotism ?" I used to enjoy hearing and singing the American national anthem and being a sports fan, hearing it 100's of times more than when I was in the navy. I don't anymore, we are the home of the brave but no longer the...land of the free, at least not truly free. Free from the political clutches of money and internal (police) power usurped from the people...no. Free from the ideologues that would call me unpatriotic to oppose them and even worse, a traitor...to do so ? No. I don't feel nearly as free as I once did.

So I ask you, what does it mean to you to...be patriotic ? I cringe at the observation of society's almost patriotic quiche and begin to grow tired of the word and its almost inherent nationalism and now politically presumptive and prejudicial acceptation.




subrob1967 -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 11:26:35 AM)

I say we ask the Brit residing in Canada, after all she seems to think she's an expert on all things American.



Yachtie -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 11:38:07 AM)

Is she an expatriated Brit?



BamaD -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 11:43:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Is she an expatriated Brit?

The British Isles aren't big enough for two omnipotent beings and there is another one from there on here.



mnottertail -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 11:46:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

I say we ask the Brit residing in Canada, after all she seems to think she's an expert on all things American.


Patriotism is not a phenomenon confined to  those born in the US or the Americas.  But I don't expect nutsackers can fathom that.



Lucylastic -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 12:19:54 PM)

Aw how sweet. You guys love me ya really do
Beams happily.



PyrotheClown -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 12:34:55 PM)

Patriotism is flying a Pakistani made flag on the antenna of a Japanese made truck while hauling Mexican laborers to my home to assemble a Chinese made swing set in my backyard while I watch the news on one of the many channels owned by an Australian business tycoon


America is truly a nation of immigrants, So long as they don't wanna stay here and have the same rights as I do lol



chatterbox24 -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 12:49:44 PM)

Being a nutsacker? I'm kidding but I've been meaning to ask for quite sometime what does that mean?



Lucylastic -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 12:53:09 PM)

Its the sack without the balls to go with them
Well that my interpretation
I could be wrong



PyrotheClown -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 12:58:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Being a nutsacker? I'm kidding but I've been meaning to ask for quite sometime what does that mean?

I was guessing a derogatory name for a teabagger


In my opinion,teabagger is badnuff lol



PeonForHer -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 1:24:19 PM)

quote:

I was once asked why ? Why am I 'patriotic' ? Is it because I think my country better simply because...I was born in it ? That question gave me pause. I honestly couldn't say that my country was any better because it being the place of my birth, so I relied upon...see above.


For one thing, to love your country doesn't mean that you have to believe your country is better than any other, any more than loving your wife means that you have to believe that she's better than any other woman. (As I think you see, yourself.)

For another, nobody has to accept the old bollocks that the Right has been cooking up for so many years as the one and only definition of patriotism. Again, you're free to define the way you love your country just as much as you're free to define the way in which you love your wife. This is one reason why, for instance, Welsh, Irish and Scottish nationalism has nothing like the chauvinist flavour of English and British nationalism. (In the British Isles we have a lot of different nationalisms compressed into a small geographical space - it's bound to be a hot topic for us.)



FellowSlave -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 1:32:53 PM)

quote:

So I ask you, how do you define...'patriotism ?"

It is my understanding:
The term has quite clear definition. It is a dedication to your own country, acting consistently protecting it and trying to make it better. It is just a progression: self, your family, your community... country. Patriotism has an aspect of irrationality. I understand this is the main question. How to cope when a country turns into a shit hole, and there is nothing an individual can realistically do about it?
I think in this case one needs to follow his instincts. Attempting to build life somewhere else is not for everyone, and there are always ways to act and survive within your own country honorably. I am looking at local natives; they do preserve their culture despite massive foreign invasion.
We (the invaders) are formally serving the Queen, of course. Realistically, we are not patriotic. In case of foreign invasion it would be difficult to assemble a fighting army.
I guess the US would have the same problem. Try to have military draft back! Currently, poor and illegal immigrants serve in the military for money and benefits.
Recent US news (left and right) depict Russian fascist dictator Putin as hero, it shows the psychology. All financial advisers for the rich propose moving the bulk of liquid capital abroad. This reality will contribute substantially to coming economic collapse. Nation states are much more resilient to disasters because of nationalism.



kdsub -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 1:45:54 PM)

MrRodgers...We, meaning Americans, have made our country what it is today. I truly believe ...WE... meaning the citizens have made it what it is today. Not business... Not republicans and democrats... not some secret black helicopter elite.

What you or I don't like about our country is a result of our apathy or lack of will to change it. WE allow ourselves to be influenced by political propaganda by fixating on the inconsequential while the important issues are stalled or changed to benefit a few... It is our damn fault.

Yes, there certainly is manipulation of the gullible but again... it is our own damn fault.

The bright side of all this is the mechanism for righting the wrongs is still in tact and an election away. History has proven that you can only fool people for so long...even the gullible...and eventually wrongs are righted. But... sad but so... often thousands of lives must be sacrificed before the veil of deception is lifted.

If you stand back from your frustration, yes I know it is hard, you can already see these changes starting to take place. Take for instance the overall change in thinking on gay marriage and gays in general. This change despite the constant drum beat of intolerance from the right wing conservatives . People on this site are so quick to condemn Religion, Christians in particular, as racist yet they fail to understand the change is in Christians... the majority in this country.

We are finally realizing the mistakes we made in fighting a legitimate war and are in the process of disengaging from those mistakes… Again with thousands needlessly dead…and It’s our damn fault.

To be patriotic is a personal thing… to each generation it may have different roots… But don’t mistake patriotism with nationalism… they are different. To be a Patriot you must believe in the basic goodness of your country… You must be proud of the direction it is going and believe in the foundation of the system. You don’t have to be any of those things to be a nationalists.

Right now I am very patriotic about some things in our past…and our boys and girls defending me now… But there are many things my country has done over the last 50 years that I am not proud of…and IT’S MY OWN DAMN FAULT.

Butch



MercTech -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 2:10:11 PM)

As a youth, I was patriotic because it was expected and we were trained to be.
Eventually I put away childish compliance and considered whether and why I was patriotic.
What came to sum it up for me was the Oath of Enlistment.


quote:


§ 502. Enlistment oath: who may administer

(a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
(b) Who May Administer.— The oath may be taken before the President, the Vice-President, the Secretary of Defense, any commissioned officer, or any other person designated under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense.


The bold section sums it up for me.
And I consider the policies of several members of Congress to be engaged in a decades long siege on the Constitution. <evil grin>



kdsub -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 2:18:56 PM)

I do believe the blood of true patriots is needed to remind us of what is different and special about that document. It seems people forget the lessons and sacrifices of the past that lead to our Constitution. Only a reaffirmation through hardship seems to open our eyes to the true meaning of our freedoms.

Butch



fucktoyprincess -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 4:42:50 PM)

You raise an interesting question because patriotism is not always what people think it means. Devotion to and support/love of one's country does not necessarily mean one has to feel that other countries are bad/evil/stupid, etc. Patriotism becomes ugly when it becomes jingoism. Otherwise, patriotism is a positive thing that supports civic virtue. I can't see anything wrong with that.

I am in agreement with others on the thread that to me, personally, what I support is the Constitution.

I do feel that the right wing in this country often conflates patriotism with jingoism. And they are absolutely not the same. And because the right wing has conflated patriotism with jingoism, the liberal/left wing have abandoned notions of patriotism because they are not in support of jingoism. Maybe patriotism can never mean what it is supposed to anymore. Maybe we need a new word. A word that everyone can agree does not mean jingoism. [sm=2cents.gif]



jlf1961 -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 5:15:39 PM)

I swore an oath to defend the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I read that to mean to support the constitution and those authorities exercising constitutional power as laid out in the constitution.

Which means to some people buy all the guns and ammo to arm a small army, declare yourself a militia and become an extremist, regardless of which party is running things.



MercTech -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 5:56:21 PM)

Thomas Jefferson considered the right to keep and bear arms the last defense against government tyranny.
Alexander Hamilton considered the keeping and bearing of arms a privilege that should have been limited to recognized militias.
I tend to be more Jeffersonian.

With all the government abuses over the last few decades I can understand the desire to fort up in an armed compound and give the government a single digit salute.

I haven't given up on the country yet.



Marc2b -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 6:29:54 PM)

Patriotism is:

Participating in the civic discourse.

Advocating for the public good.

Rooting for your country's athletes during international competition.



DominantWoman65 -> RE: Let's have it...what is patriotic ? (3/12/2014 6:31:00 PM)

I may take a rash of shit for this, but it is my own personal beliefs.

I too took the oath. I don't expect any thank you's or special recognition for making a choice in defending and protecting my nation and believing in the constitution, it was merely my contribution as a citizen.

My political affiliation does not define my patriotism nor does it define my character as an American. My patriotism is in the choices that I make on a daily basis whether it is volunteering at a soup kitchen or visiting a VA hospital or coaching a youth sport, I am giving of myself to assist in making a fellow countrymans life a little better.

The president is my Commander in Chief and I will respect that position regardless of whether I agree or disagree with decisions and policy that are being made. He was elected by the people for the people and any betterment of our country means putting political differences aside and stop the finger pointing and work together as Americans to build a better nation.

The United States of America is far from perfect but she is my country and I haven't given up my faith in her, I haven't given up on her people. As long as I wake up every day and ask myself what I can do to make some one elses road a little easier, even if for only a minute, then I am fulfilling my patriotic duty as a member of my community and my nation.

Edited for not wearing glasses





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