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Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 5:54:01 PM   
LorraineCA


Posts: 114
Joined: 12/10/2013
Status: offline 		I'm a firm believers that criminals need to be rehabilitated otherwise when they get out of jail they tend to commit the same crime again. If you educate a person and give them a job they don't need to resort to crime. This is the way I look at it. If 20 people are released from jail 18 will be back in jail within a 5 year period. If you have a rehabilitation program only 14 will be back in jail within 5 years. Isn't it worth the time, energy and money to rehabilitate because 4 people will change their ways.

If we don't do anything our jails will continue to grow and be overcrowded.

However, I was debating with someone and he said that if someone robbed him and caused lots of damage, he wants this person to be punished. He doesn't want him to go to jail, get 3 square meals a day, attend school and learn a trade. He wants him to suffer.

I don't know what to say to him because he has a good point. If someone raped my daughter I would want him to be punished, not rewarded. It's like saying to people: "Do you want a better life? Go kill someone and we will send you to prison and teach you a trade, free of charge."

A friend of mine had a lot of warrants out for her arrest. She turned herself in and the Judge was really upset at her and gave her a 4-year sentence. In the jail system they have a "fed-kick program" (I don't know if the Gov't still has it.) where if your number comes up you go scott free, no parole. She said that it's better known as the "lottery system." Well, after 4 weeks her number was picked and she got out. She is back to doing drugs.

I am really lost on the answers to our current jail system. What are your thoughs?
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 6:33:57 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline 		Federal: On Dec. 31, 2012, there were 196,574 sentenced prisoners under federal jurisdiction. Of these, 99,426 were serving time for drug offenses (that is more than half).

State: On Dec. 31, 2011, there were 1,341,797 sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction. Of these, 222,738 were serving time for drug offenses

If we stop the war on drugs, legalize marijuana, decriminalize most other illegal drugs and offer people rehab instead of jail time we would see an immediate reduction in the number of people incarcerated.


Link

(in reply to LorraineCA)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 6:43:11 PM   
LorraineCA


Posts: 114
Joined: 12/10/2013
Status: offline 		MsMJAY,

I used to agree with you. What would you say to the person whose daughter was raped? The father and/or mother wants this person to be punished and go to jail. They don't want the criminal avoiding jail and getting counseling and learning a trade. What do you say to the person who is the victim of the crime?


(in reply to MsMJAY)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 6:53:48 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA
If you have a rehabilitation program only 14 will be back in jail within 5 years. Isn't it worth the time, energy and money to rehabilitate because 4 people will change their ways.


Frankly this is a terrible argument for rehabilitation, you're actually making a compelling case to throw away the key.

(in reply to LorraineCA)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 7:00:00 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		We need to rewrite the drug laws, so we aren't clogging our system with the wrong kind of criminals, we need rehabilitation for those who can benefit, hard labor/chain gangs for those who might come around, and use the death penalty a hell of a lot more often for those who are never going to be anything but predatory scum.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to LorraineCA)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 7:01:18 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		I just finished reading "Orange is the New Black: My Year in a Women's Prison" which talks a lot about the lack of rehabilitation. She describes the pre-release programs she went to - what a joke! She talks about how the War on Drugs is doing nothing to reduce demand. She talks about the revolving door. My library carries this book. (The Netflix series is more entertaining and less educational.)

quote:

However, I was debating with someone and he said that if someone robbed him and caused lots of damage, he wants this person to be punished. He doesn't want him to go to jail, get 3 square meals a day, attend school and learn a trade. He wants him to suffer.

I don't know what to say to him because he has a good point. If someone raped my daughter I would want him to be punished, not rewarded. It's like saying to people: "Do you want a better life? Go kill someone and we will send you to prison and teach you a trade, free of charge."


I'd want the robbers and drug addicts to learn a trade so when they got out they could contribute to society instead of being a blight on it.

I have a friend who was a heroin addict for 28 years and during that time committed innumerable crimes to support his habit. He did plenty of time in detox and jail. After his last overdose, he started going to yoga, moved to a yoga center, and has been clean for 13 years, despite periods of adversity, including homelessness and people offering him drugs.

My brother is mentally ill. When in court to support him, I always hear references to Drug Court.

New Drug Court combating addiction in Plymouth County

...The Drug Court, the first in Plymouth County, opened last fall, based on models already in place in Boston and western Massachusetts.

It allows judges to place nonviolent offenders with addictions into more expansive treatment programs. It also includes the intensive probationary component that has proven successful in combating addiction in Hawaii.

...Through the Drug Court, judges can now place drug dependent suspects in programs that can last up to 90 days – three times longer than before.

In its short history, Plymouth Drug Court is already among the state’s leaders in referring addicts for treatment in programs like Reflections, a New Bedford treatment program.

For those recommended for the program, it can mean the difference between a criminal record and a clean slate. But it comes at a price.

Participants are held to high standards, with regular testing for compliance. And sobriety is only part of the program. Community service, continuing education and steady employment are integral components as well.

So is attendance at Drug Court.

The sessions were initially held monthly but now meet every few weeks. Participants are required to sit through the entire session, listening in on one another’s reviews with the judge.

The enforced seating allows probationers to see that they are not alone in their struggles and that every day brings it own challenges. The rules of the program are strict, with demerits for tardiness in court-ordered counseling or community service. But for many, it is the first time they have been held accountable for anything in their lives.

Those who run afoul can end up leaving the courthouse in handcuffs, which is a valuable group lesson of its own.

The greater lesson comes in watching people they’ve seen struggle successfully complete the program.
It can take months to achieve, and there is occasionally some sliding backward, but graduation is a very attainable goal for most in the program.

Staying clean is not the only criteria.

The program requires graduates to complete GED programs and get jobs in addition to staying clean and completing any court-ordered community service commitments.


Read more: http://www.wickedlocal.com/marshfield/news/x981219341/New-Drug-Court-combating-addiction-in-Plymouth-County#ixzz2pxcVqc1d

(in reply to LorraineCA)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 7:07:04 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I used to agree with you. What would you say to the person whose daughter was raped? The father and/or mother wants this person to be punished and go to jail. They don't want the criminal avoiding jail and getting counseling and learning a trade. What do you say to the person who is the victim of the crime?


We're not talking life sentences for rape, are we? If I were raped, I'd want him to go to jail AND get counseling so he didn't rape someone else when he got out.

I'm for the opportunity to learn the trade because I think time incarcerated is better spent being productive.


(in reply to LorraineCA)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 7:16:13 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Perhaps our posters in Scandinavian countries can comment on their countries' prison system's emphasis on rehabilitation vs retribution. Meanwhile, here's a past thread with posts by Norwegians Nephandi and Aswad on Anders Behring Breivik's sentence:

What gentle people you Norwegians must be

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 7:46:06 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline 		I am all for violent offenders completing their time behind bars; but they too should be offered some type of rehab during their incarceration. Eventually they will get out and hopefully with the right type of treatment they will be able to change the behavior that led them to prison in the first place.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

MsMJAY,

I used to agree with you. What would you say to the person whose daughter was raped? The father and/or mother wants this person to be punished and go to jail. They don't want the criminal avoiding jail and getting counseling and learning a trade. What do you say to the person who is the victim of the crime?




(in reply to LorraineCA)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 8:26:30 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I do think we should put more effort into rehabilitation, not just during prison but also before (preventatively) and after (to help ex-cons integrate back into society). But there are some people who are just bad, who like being criminals and hurting people or just don't care and can't be redeemed. The tough part is, how do you tell which is which?

(in reply to LorraineCA)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 8:48:27 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

The tough part is, how do you tell which is which?



With sensitivity, care, and a tendency to err on the side of hope, for the first offenders.

Commit two violent crimes, and God can sort them out.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 8:55:31 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I am all for violent offenders completing their time behind bars; but they too should be offered some type of rehab during their incarceration. Eventually they will get out and hopefully with the right type of treatment they will be able to change the behavior that led them to prison in the first place.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

MsMJAY,

I used to agree with you. What would you say to the person whose daughter was raped? The father and/or mother wants this person to be punished and go to jail. They don't want the criminal avoiding jail and getting counseling and learning a trade. What do you say to the person who is the victim of the crime?





Have you seen Demolition Man?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 9:24:34 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I am becoming cynical as I get older. I've known my share of people who have been incarcerated... two of them I've known for a lifetime. I've come to a personal conclusion that no amount of rehabilitation really changes anyone and this includes habitual drug users.

I believe these people have a flaw, either in upbringing and/or in the physical development of their brains, that make them unable or unwilling to live according to society norms. It is as if they are still children in adult bodies. These people do not or cannot use self restraint to control their impulses. They are inherently narcissistic, selfish, and lazy. They run from reality using drugs and or refuse to work to support themselves. In most this flaw cannot be rehabilitated using todays accepted methods

Only time seems to change this way of thinking and not in all. I don't have the statistics but if memory serves most habitual criminals in and out of jail tend to change their ways in their early forties with OR without rehabilitation.

To me jail is and should be for punishment and until science can find a way to physically change the brains of habitual criminals rehabilitation is just a waste of tax payers money.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/9/2014 9:58:37 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LorraineCA)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 10:35:37 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		I think prison is overused as a crutch for lack of ideas.

Getting 3 square is hardly paying a debt to society.

Inmates should have the option of serving in a foreign legion. Expendable soldiers until their crime is paid back - where further offenses are paid by death and rehabilitation is done by demonstrated valor and character.


(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/9/2014 11:34:03 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		I have traveled in dark places with people most would be afraid to see in daylight. No amount of rehabilitation will ever affect their attitude towards the rest of civlized society. They are neither black nor white, rich nor poor. There is something inside some people that prevents them from ever integrating with 'normal' society. Some have never experienced what most here consider that. When they're not locked up, everything in the world is up for grabs in their minds. At some point, society has to realize that some people will never be productive members of the community, no matter how much money we throw at the problem.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/10/2014 12:48:39 AM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		Up to a point, I agree with you phydeaux, but you realise if you instituted something along the lines of that 'punishment battalion' you would have the 'do-gooders' up in arms about how they were only naughty boys and needed coddling and therapy rather than that sort of treatment. you would also need some kind of war going on that you are fairly sure they would not be coming back from. Because if they did, they would be better trained to kill anybody and everybody with anything at hand.
There was a British TV series way back when that was based on a similar theme. Any convisted criminal was bid for by one of two sides and then they went and fought in that sides army in a huge space set aside for violent people to do their worst to each other. I'm sorry but I can't remember the name of it but it sure made a lot of sense to me then

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/10/2014 1:12:45 AM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		One survey of US prisons noted maybe 70% of inmates hadn't gotten past 9th grade in school. A related study arrived at the conclusion most of these had learning disabilities which few US schools do well working with. The one US prison with a fair to middln' recidivism rate is the ONLY one that requires steady progress to a GED to enjoy any institutional privileges. No GED, you don't get out early. It's also stuffed with educational programs that do lead to work and further schooling. I'm not aware of any other prison that actually attempts rehabilitation other than making some education available to self-starters. Several well respected Criminologists have noted that despite the rhetoric, only punishment has been tried in US penal institutions and criminal justice systems. Few if any real attempts have been made at actual rehabilitation and most ended quickly when those determined to be punitive raised a fuss about actually teaching inmates useful social and employment skills. Way to keep the budget balanced, prisoners costing just a bit more than taxpayers?
This is not the full picture. What US prisons are, other than the white collar crime country club camps, is the 'punishment' is actually post grad finishing school For criminals. Where you go to get your ticket stamped, meet all the real players, learn effective crime techniques and network with the people you'll have your career with once out again. On tax dollars.

Everybody changes all the time. Some it's even noticeable. Saints fall to temptation. Mafioso turn 'soft' and start to care about what they leave to their family and community. Not many, but giving up on all is simply too expensive for even the 'richest' country in the world. Putting bunches of sociopaths in essentially unsupervised social clubs sure isn't working. The post above on how effective 'drug courts' are re-structuring lives is a clue?

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
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RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/10/2014 1:19:48 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

However, I was debating with someone and he said that if someone robbed him and caused lots of damage, he wants this person to be punished. He doesn't want him to go to jail, get 3 square meals a day, attend school and learn a trade. He wants him to suffer.

I don't know what to say to him because he has a good point. If someone raped my daughter I would want him to be punished, not rewarded. It's like saying to people: "Do you want a better life? Go kill someone and we will send you to prison and teach you a trade, free of charge."



how awfull has to be life outside the prison to consider jail a reward and not a punishment just because basic rights are guaranteed?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

You would also need some kind of war going on that you are fairly sure they would not be coming back from. Because if they did, they would be better trained to kill anybody and everybody with anything at hand.



shit at this point it's better just to shout people in the head at the reading of the sentence

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/10/2014 1:26:09 AM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		So maybe you would prefer the 'volunteers' to serve their time and come back to society skilled in innumerable different ways to kill, maim or otherwise damage the people they are being let loose on ? Gee that's a good idea. Why not just get rid of cops, courts and jails in the first place and give the crims open slather to do anything their tiny minds take a fancy to ? That would save millions of dollars.
On second thoughts, a few cents for a bullet MAY be a better idea for some of those assholes.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Rehabilitation Of Criminals - 1/10/2014 2:03:34 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

So maybe you would prefer the 'volunteers' to serve their time and come back to society skilled in innumerable different ways to kill, maim or otherwise damage the people they are being let loose on ? Gee that's a good idea. Why not just get rid of cops, courts and jails in the first place and give the crims open slather to do anything their tiny minds take a fancy to ? That would save millions of dollars.
On second thoughts, a few cents for a bullet MAY be a better idea for some of those assholes.


your answer sounds like I gave you some kind of reason to belive I supported Phydeaux idea, well I don't.

FR

The whole thread quickly turned in "100 way to torture convicts". Send your ideas to maricopa's county sheriff office they will for sure be appreciated.

Why not trasforming jails in a reality show where they need t win a game to have food, if they loose they get isolation and the audience decide who will be subject to electric chair that week?

Maybe you should interrogate yourself about why you have so much violence in your cities in firstplace.

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
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