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egern -> Is war enevitable? (10/21/2013 9:28:54 AM)


Your Dose of Optimism: War isn’t Necessarily Inevitable, Researchers Say


We’ve heard repeatedly that humans are intrinsically a violent species and that war is an inevitability. While this conventional wisdom has been used to justify and shrug off acts of war, some scientists are finally contesting this notion. Their research suggests that peace is not such an elusive state for mankind after all.

Recently, a scientific team led by Douglas Fry and Patrik Soderberg examined the presence or absence of war in ancient societies. Inspecting anthropological clues of more than 20 hunter-gather civilizations, they believe that the evidence doesn’t suggest that warfare occurred. While skeletal remains do demonstrate that some ancient people were brutally murdered, these deaths seemed to stem from “individual conflicts” rather than coordinated war efforts.

“By showing that war is the exception rather than the norm in societies with a lifestyle resembling our ancestral past, the study supports a more optimistic view on the human potential for peace,” said Soderberg.

Other researchers, however, disagree with the team’s conclusions. They take issue with the way Soderberg and Fry ruled certain violent deaths not acts of warfare. “If you find a spearhead or arrowhead in someone’s bones, which is common, is that war or interpersonal dispute?” asks anthropologist Michael Wilson. “You just don’t know.”



http://www.care2.com/causes/your-dose-of-optimism-war-isnt-necessarily-inevitable-researchers-say.html

A very fascinating question. The researchers seem to draw two opposite conclusion from the same material.

Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances?




hlen5 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/21/2013 12:01:29 PM)

Fighting for dominance is human nature. I don't think war could EVER be bred out of us. What a lovely dream, though.




kdsub -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/21/2013 12:13:43 PM)

This is why the many must protect us from each other. Otherwise in order to have world peace we need an organization with the founding principles of the United Nations but without the dumb assed rules of the Security Council. Power for voting needs to be based on economic and population criteria governed by a basic set of principles something like the US Constitution. The new security council power could then be balanced by a world court based on the principles of the US Supreme Court whos only power is to uphold the Charter Constitutional document.

Until then the UN is a waste of time and the world will always be on the brink of war. There must be no veto power to work...all resolutions will need to be immediately enforced with the threat of military intervention.

Even today with the power of dominate militaries there is no one nation that could defend itself from a united world government.

Butch




Zonie63 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/21/2013 12:53:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

Other researchers, however, disagree with the team’s conclusions. They take issue with the way Soderberg and Fry ruled certain violent deaths not acts of warfare. “If you find a spearhead or arrowhead in someone’s bones, which is common, is that war or interpersonal dispute?” asks anthropologist Michael Wilson. “You just don’t know.”


http://www.care2.com/causes/your-dose-of-optimism-war-isnt-necessarily-inevitable-researchers-say.html

A very fascinating question. The researchers seem to draw two opposite conclusion from the same material.

Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances?


They seem to be drawing a distinction between actual war and individual disputes, but I'm not sure if that really tells us much. When human societies were much smaller and sparsely populated, what kind of "wars" could they even have?

I suppose the question still remains: How does an individual dispute turn into an outright feud or a full-blown shooting war? If individual disputes and violence are a part of human nature, why wouldn't war also be a part of human nature? We're a competitive species, so we're always trying to one up each other. We're also a vengeful and vindictive species, so things don't usually just end with an individual dispute.

Wars have gotten big mainly because our societies and nations have gotten so big. It's our species' propensity to want to be the biggest and most powerful - and we need war to accomplish that, as well as to keep it. It's not because of what we do, but it's because of what we want.




egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 1:23:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
It's not because of what we do, but it's because of what we want.



Do I read this as war does not happen because of violence, but because of greed? Or is that putting words in your mouth?

I cannot help but wonder just how war like your average person really is?? Seems to me no one wants to go to war because they want to kill someone. At least I hope not. People do it because they think there is a cause- don't they?




leonine -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 5:25:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Fighting for dominance is human nature.

So is co-operating and helping each other. In fact, both anecdote and scientific studies show that most people respond to crisis situations by being more helpful and co-operative. That's why the generation who went through WW2 are nostalgic about it: what they miss isn't the bombs and shortages but the feeling of fellowship, which recent neoliberal governments have tried so hard to stamp out in favour of competition at all levels.

In his enlightening book "Cows, pigs, wars and witches," one of the groups Marvin Harris looked at was the Maring of New Guinea, whose villages routinely go to war with their neighbours whenever they have enough surplus crops to be able to spare the men from field work. Their whole culture is shaped by constant war: women and children live in fear of raids, men are brought up from birth to be tough brutal warriors so they can defend the land - and so they can attack the next village, because, you know, we have to fight them over there so we won't have to fight them over here.

If you asked one of them, they would certainly say these wars are inevitable: the other tribes are hostile, so they have to be the same to survive, that's just the way it is. Yet in many other lands, the same sort of jungle farmers with the same culture of slash-and-burn farming villages live in peace and mutual support. Once a culture is locked into a pattern of war, it's a hard habit to break, but getting into it is not inevitable.

Less than a century ago, most people would have said that Europe was in the same position writ large. Nations had been fighting off and on for as long as there had been identifiable European nations, war was "a continuation of diplomacy by other means," the attempt to enforce peace by mutual treaties at the turn of the century had just led to a bigger and worse war, and it was clear that "the war to end wars" was going to be followed by another pretty soon. Only a crazy dreamer would have said then that we would see three quarters of a century when no European nation has even thought of taking up arms against a neighbour, with every prospect of that Utopia continuing into the foreseeable future.

The conventional explanation was the Cold War, which united us against a common threat. But the Soviet menace is history, and nothing has changed: we have not seen the sort of explosion of suppressed hostilities that happens when an artificially enforced peace ends, as in Iraq or former Yugoslavia. We don't all love each other - the Northern nations think the Southern are lazy parasites, the British think the EU is a conspiracy to rob us, and everybody hates the Germans for being too successful at everything they do - but even the lunatic fringe anti-Union parties don't talk even as a joke about settling these differences with tanks and bombs. It seems (whispering softly) that we have managed to break the habit of war.




Zonie63 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 6:12:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
It's not because of what we do, but it's because of what we want.



Do I read this as war does not happen because of violence, but because of greed? Or is that putting words in your mouth?

I cannot help but wonder just how war like your average person really is?? Seems to me no one wants to go to war because they want to kill someone. At least I hope not. People do it because they think there is a cause- don't they?


I would say wars of today are caused a lot by greed, although that may not be the only factor. Vindictiveness, jealousy, ego, pride, etc. may be other factors. I see violence as the end result of these thought processes humans go through.

I suppose there are a few people who might go to war because they want to kill someone, although I don't know how prevalent that is. Those who make the decision to go to war aren't usually the same people who are sent to do the actual killing.

However, I don't think any of these would be viewed as legitimate causes for going to war; usually there has to be some sort of "honorable" pretext, like saving the world from evil or something like that.




Owner59 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 8:30:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


Your Dose of Optimism: War isn’t Necessarily Inevitable, Researchers Say


We’ve heard repeatedly that humans are intrinsically a violent species and that war is an inevitability. While this conventional wisdom has been used to justify and shrug off acts of war, some scientists are finally contesting this notion. Their research suggests that peace is not such an elusive state for mankind after all.

Recently, a scientific team led by Douglas Fry and Patrik Soderberg examined the presence or absence of war in ancient societies. Inspecting anthropological clues of more than 20 hunter-gather civilizations, they believe that the evidence doesn’t suggest that warfare occurred. While skeletal remains do demonstrate that some ancient people were brutally murdered, these deaths seemed to stem from “individual conflicts” rather than coordinated war efforts.

“By showing that war is the exception rather than the norm in societies with a lifestyle resembling our ancestral past, the study supports a more optimistic view on the human potential for peace,” said Soderberg.

Other researchers, however, disagree with the team’s conclusions. They take issue with the way Soderberg and Fry ruled certain violent deaths not acts of warfare. “If you find a spearhead or arrowhead in someone’s bones, which is common, is that war or interpersonal dispute?” asks anthropologist Michael Wilson. “You just don’t know.”



http://www.care2.com/causes/your-dose-of-optimism-war-isnt-necessarily-inevitable-researchers-say.html

A very fascinating question. The researchers seem to draw two opposite conclusion from the same material.

Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances?



Well, since people are involved....the answer is yes.


As well,there could be a time in the future when we evolve away from violence and threats of violence.


Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.




Yachtie -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 10:14:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.



Religion? Really? I do agree a bit on hunger, of the non-food sort.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 10:22:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.

Religion? Really? I do agree a bit on hunger, of the non-food sort.


I think most wars in the ME have sectarian roots.




JeffBC -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 10:27:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Fighting for dominance is human nature.

Last I checked that is a part of... well... life... all life. In the big picture we call it evolution. Is war inevitable with humans? I'm guessing yes.

I cannot comment on the original piece since it isn't a science article and does not link to one. But yeah, I find it concerning that there is plenty of evidence of humans killing humans but the researchers chose to class it as "individual conflicts" rather than "war". In smaller groups I'd expect a lot smaller conflicts also.




DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 2:06:43 PM)

Don't forget that modern wars are, as much as anything else, a matter of reflex. World War 1 is a good example: no one knew why it started, or who started it (Serbia), or what they were fighting about, or how to fight it, or how to win, or how to end it. The whole ghastly mess was a spontaneous explosion brought on by people who were too afraid of 'them' to think rationally, and a system which presumed the worst, and got it. And if you think this is in the past, look at the endless conditioned knee-jerk reaction we've demonstrated in the last fifty years or so - first against the 'Red Menace', and now with 'Terrorism'. It's not to say that wars sometimes have to be fought, but those cases are fewer than one might think.
[sm=dunno.gif]




hlen5 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 2:14:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Fighting for dominance is human nature.

Last I checked that is a part of... well... life... all life......



True!! I put the human qualifier on it since we were speaking about human conflict. I guess we could call fights between groups of chimpanzees war, too.




DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 5:53:41 PM)

Actually, chimpanzees do fight organized wars more along the line of (pardon the usage) guerilla actions. Honest!
[sm=fight.gif]




Esinn -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/22/2013 9:58:26 PM)

War is not inevitable. Figure less than .5 - 1% of the population signs up to kill for the USG. For almost the last decade (5-7 yrs) the primary killer of those has not been armed combatants but friendly fire/suicide.

We've been involved in ME politics since 1937.

In 1946 the 5th fleet was established. It is simply time to get out.

Remove the strangle hold the US IC has on congress - everything changes.

Right now the IC sets them up; the DOD knocks them down. Since 6/4/2013 we've been learning a lot.

The world is not the AOR of the IC/DOD and the USA is the AO of either. We have FLEA/LE for that.




egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 10:31:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I would say wars of today are caused a lot by greed, although that may not be the only factor. Vindictiveness, jealousy, ego, pride, etc. may be other factors. I see violence as the end result of these thought processes humans go through.

I suppose there are a few people who might go to war because they want to kill someone, although I don't know how prevalent that is. Those who make the decision to go to war aren't usually the same people who are sent to do the actual killing.

However, I don't think any of these would be viewed as legitimate causes for going to war; usually there has to be some sort of "honorable" pretext, like saving the world from evil or something like that.


I agree with what you say, and "Those who make the decision to go to war aren't usually the same people who are sent to do the actual killing" is to me a truth and an argument that war is not because we are inherently violent, and so can be avoided in many cases, if we choose the right people to lead us.




egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 10:32:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Fighting for dominance is human nature. I don't think war could EVER be bred out of us. What a lovely dream, though.



But is is for dominance, really? I tend to think like Zonie63 that it is just as much about greed..




egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 10:34:12 AM)

Owner59:
"Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily."

Agreed, though I'd say greed is more a reason than hunger.




egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 10:35:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Most wars are caused by religion and hunger. We should work on those problems primarily.

Religion? Really? I do agree a bit on hunger, of the non-food sort.


I think most wars in the ME have sectarian roots.




It looks that way, but I have a feeling that in most cases the reason is politics and the tool is religion.




egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 10:45:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Fighting for dominance is human nature.

Last I checked that is a part of... well... life... all life. In the big picture we call it evolution. Is war inevitable with humans? I'm guessing yes.

I cannot comment on the original piece since it isn't a science article and does not link to one. But yeah, I find it concerning that there is plenty of evidence of humans killing humans but the researchers chose to class it as "individual conflicts" rather than "war". In smaller groups I'd expect a lot smaller conflicts also.



I cannot see war as evolution, animals fight, but they do not war on each other, that is a human thing demanding organization.

I see individual fights as very different from war, because in the first case two or more humans choose to solve something with violence, in war someone in charge sends a whole mob of people into the dispute.

The difference is in how many people actually want the violence. Violence on a person level is inherent in us, though given much too much press, as I see, most people are quite peaceful. But personal violence is very different from war.

As for it not being a scientific article, no, not the sense I think you mean, but it does link to the research. Here it is: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/war-inevitable-debate-rages-among-anthropologists-6C10680040







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