RE: Is war enevitable?

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JeffBC -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 10:59:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern I see individual fights as very different from war, because in the first case two or more humans choose to solve something with violence, in war someone in charge sends a whole mob of people into the dispute. I get your distinction. I'm just not sure that anything else is possible in the human species. We self-organize into structures where "someone" is in charge then that someone makes decisions -- including who we go to kill and be killed by. This is the game of thrones in real life and I'm not sure there's anything to be done about it. The difference is in how many people actually want the violence. Violence on a person level is inherent in us, though given much too much press, as I see, most people are quite peaceful. But personal violence is very different from war. You may see that but I'd argue that you are a human blinded by human thinking. Compared to which other species on the planet are we not very violent? We have everything from road rage to random gang killings to war. We slaughter ourselves and everything around us in wholesale job lots like no other species I can name. We are not very "pretty" as a species goes. As for it not being a scientific article, no, not the sense I think you mean, but it does link to the research. Here it is: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/war-inevitable-debate-rages-among-anthropologists-6C10680040 I was referring to the original science paper not a pseudo-scientist writing about science in a sensationalist fashion.

Arturas -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 11:20:44 AM)
quote: Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances? War, or violence, used to satisfy a need and is used by all species when a requirement is not met in any other way. For American Citizens: See "Maslow". See "American Revolution". See "War for States Rights". See "Boston Tea Party". See "Minutemen". See "Militia". See "Walmart ammunition shelves sold out".

Arturas -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 11:24:33 AM)
See "American Declaration of Independence" quote: That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

Kirata -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 3:40:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern Is war a part of human nature? Or is it depending on circumstances? A Thousand Years of Peace K.

Phydeaux -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 4:22:12 PM)
What a silly topic. War and poverty will always be with us - as will greed, dishonesty violence. Was is clausewitz who said war is diplomacy by other methods? Its also the opposite - economic competition is war by different means. Diplomacy is war by different means. War reflects disparity in power. It can be redressed peacebly (which is why america is losing so many drops and has a living standard dropping like a rock) - or violently - like is happening in syria. What amuses me is that anyone would be so doey-eyed to think it war possible to eliminate.

Zonie63 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/23/2013 6:52:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux What a silly topic. War and poverty will always be with us - as will greed, dishonesty violence. Was is clausewitz who said war is diplomacy by other methods? Its also the opposite - economic competition is war by different means. Diplomacy is war by different means. War reflects disparity in power. It can be redressed peacebly (which is why america is losing so many drops and has a living standard dropping like a rock) - or violently - like is happening in syria. What amuses me is that anyone would be so doey-eyed to think it war possible to eliminate. I think the actual quote from Clausewitz was "War is the continuation of politics by other means," although diplomacy is also part of politics (and so is economic competition). I think most people prefer peace. Even history's war mongers tended to offer a peace deal before actually going to war, but oftentimes, the price of peace is too high - higher than the price of war.

Politesub53 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 2:40:24 AM)
War is sending someone elses child off to fight.

tweakabelle -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 3:06:06 AM)
If war and violence are part of 'human nature', then why is it that people around the world spend almost all of their lives without indulging in war and/or violence? Why is it that sane people only resort to war and violence when all other avenues of conflict resolution have been thoroughly exhausted? If one is to evaluate war and violence in terms of human nature, surely it is far more accurate to conclude that it is human nature to avoid war and violence.

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 3:31:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking Don't forget that modern wars are, as much as anything else, a matter of reflex. World War 1 is a good example: no one knew why it started, or who started it (Serbia), or what they were fighting about, or how to fight it, or how to win, or how to end it. The whole ghastly mess was a spontaneous explosion brought on by people who were too afraid of 'them' to think rationally, and a system which presumed the worst, and got it. And if you think this is in the past, look at the endless conditioned knee-jerk reaction we've demonstrated in the last fifty years or so - first against the 'Red Menace', and now with 'Terrorism'. It's not to say that wars sometimes have to be fought, but those cases are fewer than one might think. [sm=dunno.gif] I think you have a good point here. Wars fought because we are all shit scared of each other.

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 3:50:39 AM)
ORIGINAL: egern I see individual fights as very different from war, because in the first case two or more humans choose to solve something with violence, in war someone in charge sends a whole mob of people into the dispute. quote: I get your distinction. I'm just not sure that anything else is possible in the human species. We self-organize into structures where "someone" is in charge then that someone makes decisions -- including who we go to kill and be killed by. This is the game of thrones in real life and I'm not sure there's anything to be done about it. Hm. It is my impression that a lot of people think like that, and I admit that it is easy to do, much too easy.. But, I also think that that is part of the problem, which might make us pawns for the people for whom wars is an advantage. Is that not one reason for democracy - that we can have some influence on such important matters? Or are we completely helpless in the hands of the power mongers, like the unfortunate peasants in Medieval times who both fed society and were slaves in it? The difference is in how many people actually want the violence. Violence on a person level is inherent in us, though given much too much press, as I see, most people are quite peaceful. But personal violence is very different from war. quote: You may see that but I'd argue that you are a human blinded by human thinking. Compared to which other species on the planet are we not very violent? We have everything from road rage to random gang killings to war. We slaughter ourselves and everything around us in wholesale job lots like no other species I can name. We are not very "pretty" as a species goes. If I am blinded by my humanity, then we all are blinded and we'll never know...yes we are sentient beings, and make more havoc in our greed and stupidity than any other species on earth. Likely we'll destroy it if we do not come to our senses. But that is not genetic inherent violence as I see it, but making ourselves pawns for those who both want our work, our money and our lives if it so pleases them. What I call the personal violence is on a much smaller scale, and I grew up with very little of it. Maybe that is why I see things differently. As for it not being a scientific article, no, not the sense I think you mean, but it does link to the research. Here it is: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/war-inevitable-debate-rages-among-anthropologists-6C10680040 quote: I was referring to the original science paper not a pseudo-scientist writing about science in a sensationalist fashion. Alas, it it my impression that too many scientific results are abused this way. This one I think is not as bad as many. But the research article is there if you are interested

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 3:51:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If war and violence are part of 'human nature', then why is it that people around the world spend almost all of their lives without indulging in war and/or violence? Why is it that sane people only resort to war and violence when all other avenues of conflict resolution have been thoroughly exhausted? If one is to evaluate war and violence in terms of human nature, surely it is far more accurate to conclude that it is human nature to avoid war and violence. Good point, IMO. I think most people seriously do not want war, but to be able to get on with their lives.

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 3:57:15 AM)
ORIGINAL: Arturas "Bring me my broadsword and clear understanding..." No one can argue with self defense..

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 3:59:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas See "American Declaration of Independence" quote: That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. The terrorist laws support this how, exactly?? They should be banished. The governments will always try for more power, any government, and it is the job of the voters to keep them in check.

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 4:02:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux What a silly topic. War and poverty will always be with us - as will greed, dishonesty violence. Was is clausewitz who said war is diplomacy by other methods? Its also the opposite - economic competition is war by different means. Diplomacy is war by different means. War reflects disparity in power. It can be redressed peacebly (which is why america is losing so many drops and has a living standard dropping like a rock) - or violently - like is happening in syria. What amuses me is that anyone would be so doey-eyed to think it war possible to eliminate. Anyone who wants wars would argue exactly like that - that it is inevitable. With a bit of attempted ridicule at the end for good measure ;-)

Esinn -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/24/2013 10:55:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux What a silly topic. War and poverty will always be with us - as will greed, dishonesty violence. Was is clausewitz who said war is diplomacy by other methods? Its also the opposite - economic competition is war by different means. Diplomacy is war by different means. War reflects disparity in power. It can be redressed peacebly (which is why america is losing so many drops and has a living standard dropping like a rock) - or violently - like is happening in syria. What amuses me is that anyone would be so doey-eyed to think it war possible to eliminate. What a stupid comment. War will be with citizens in the USA as long as the US IC keeps propping up bitches for a brainwashed population .5 - 1% (DOD) to knock down.

JeffBC -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/25/2013 4:32:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern Hm. It is my impression that a lot of people think like that, and I admit that it is easy to do, much too easy.. But, I also think that that is part of the problem, which might make us pawns for the people for whom wars is an advantage. Is that not one reason for democracy - that we can have some influence on such important matters? Or are we completely helpless in the hands of the power mongers, like the unfortunate peasants in Medieval times who both fed society and were slaves in it? I don't know that you can even think of it as a problem. It is how we are. Democracy is an attempt to reverse that... an attempt which has obviously failed. Honestly, I think the cycle goes something like this... reasonably good times for the masses -> political laziness -> concentration of power -> abuse of power -> bloody revolt... rinse/repeat. Democracy has turned out to be more like kabuki theater than actual politics. The real politics happens behind closed doors among the powerful.

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/25/2013 8:18:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: egern Hm. It is my impression that a lot of people think like that, and I admit that it is easy to do, much too easy.. But, I also think that that is part of the problem, which might make us pawns for the people for whom wars is an advantage. Is that not one reason for democracy - that we can have some influence on such important matters? Or are we completely helpless in the hands of the power mongers, like the unfortunate peasants in Medieval times who both fed society and were slaves in it? I don't know that you can even think of it as a problem. It is how we are. Democracy is an attempt to reverse that... an attempt which has obviously failed. Honestly, I think the cycle goes something like this... reasonably good times for the masses -> political laziness -> concentration of power -> abuse of power -> bloody revolt... rinse/repeat. Democracy has turned out to be more like kabuki theater than actual politics. The real politics happens behind closed doors among the powerful. It sometimes seems like that. Any democracy is entirely dependent on good voters and citizens that are aware, and too many of us fall down on the job. Nor do the schools try to teach anything about being a good citizen. As for 'behind closed doors' that is exactly how our dear EU works!! Yet, there are many kinds of democracy. The Swiss for instance have direct democracy and they have not been in war for ages..Any Swiss here who would like to comment? I have an idea that the less centralized a country is, the more democracy. But that would mean making alliances with others, I presume..

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/25/2013 8:34:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern I have an idea that the less centralized a country is, the more democracy. Please expound on what you mean by that statement, and how that idea would look.

Zonie63 -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/27/2013 5:39:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If war and violence are part of 'human nature', then why is it that people around the world spend almost all of their lives without indulging in war and/or violence? Why is it that sane people only resort to war and violence when all other avenues of conflict resolution have been thoroughly exhausted? If one is to evaluate war and violence in terms of human nature, surely it is far more accurate to conclude that it is human nature to avoid war and violence. It may be due to our shared understanding and collective memory of what violence and war entail that we teach restraint and non-violence to children. We teach obedience, conformity, and regimentation (necessary for collective organized violence such as war) - as well as outlining situations when violence is acceptable and when it is unacceptable. The inner violent "nature" is still there, but we humans know about it and have found ways of shaping it and molding it to a manner acceptable to society and our culture. Similarly, the reason why most people go their lives without indulging in war and violence is because it's not allowed in most societies today. Most people know that if they go on some violent rampage, it won't last very long before a stronger force will meet them and do severe violence to them. Violence may be in our nature, but our knowledge and understanding tells us that we had better not be violent if we know what's good for us. The same might also be observed among pack animals, as the betas will generally toe the line set by the alpha of the pack. The betas will tend to avoid violence and confrontation with the alpha because they know the consequences and are afraid (although this is never a sure thing).

egern -> RE: Is war enevitable? (10/27/2013 1:12:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: egern I have an idea that the less centralized a country is, the more democracy. Please expound on what you mean by that statement, and how that idea would look. In smaller units you'd have more influence on your own life. Also more direct influence.

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