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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 5:32:46 PM

Noah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I was inspired by a recent conversation to pose this question:

What do you think are the intellectual aspects most appealing in bdsm?

So many possible answers. Some of mine would include:

The clarity of each participant's desires promotes excellent communication and intimacy.

A more intimate union, whether sexual or not, allows freer expression and uninhibited imagination.

Clarity of purpose, intimate communication and the free expression of an uninhibited imagination lead to excellence in other areas.

So, I suppose my premise is good bdsm interaction leads to a higher plane. What's your own premise?

I doubt, though, that what we might carelessly be called something like "operating at a higher intellectual level" tends to yield greater clarity as a rule. I'm sure that it can and does in particular cases, because I have enjoyed some of them. Hell, I enjoyed some this morning. But the intellectual has at his or her disposal more tools for obfuscation than does the person ruled out of that rarified group. Tools to cloud both his communication with others and his perceptions of himself and the world.

In the best sorts of cases, people with an extra bit of what we might call intellectual grunt might be able to accomplish greater than average clarity of expression of their desires. And maybe this was all Rex meant. I hope he'll comment.

But as for clarity of desire, or maybe clarity regarding desire ...

The thing is that not only can intellectual horsepower get in the way of clarity of expression sometimes, it can also get in the way of what must come first in one sense: clarity in the matter of apprehending and appreciating one's own desires before we ever try to express them to another. In simple terms: ideas (theories, highfalutin preconceptions, etc) can really easily get in the way of emotions, sensations, experiences.

Don't ask my how I know.

And I realize Rex, that if we restrict ourselves to some idealized notion of intellectual power and its application that my concerns evaporate. Just tryin' to keep it grounded.

Some people see the world very clearly, and just never got in the habit of kidding themselves about their feelings and desires--or they've broken the bad habits they once had in these regards.

I think that these are the people with the clarity to offer. Some of them are "intellectuals." Some of them can lift heavy things. I'll bet that as a rule they make compelling kink partners either way.

I know. A lot of fucking big words for what is kind of an almost anti-intellectualist post. Ah shit. There goes another one.

But it isn't really anti-anything. Thanks for a nice topic, by the way.

As for "a more intimate union," I think that non-verbal communication can do a fantastic job of establishing, promoting and reinforcing intimacy. I don't see even the best of intellectual communication trumping the other options. But maybe I'm viewing this part of the original post too simplistically?

And yeah for certain sorts of people I'm pretty sure that it can work just as you suggest, but only to the same point that other people can get to in other ways.

As for clarity of purpose, once again I don't see how neuro-transmitters would be better than hormones for this, to put things pretty broadly.

Please advise.

Personally? I love hurting smart girls. I know some cool ways to hurt them that don't work so good on just everybody. I also like giving them--at least a very few very special ones--a safe(ish) place in which to not have to "be the smart one" for a while. And sometimes it is fun to pounce just when they're finally settling in to this perceived safety. I guess that might be some the the intellectually oriented BDSM stuff you were asking about.

As for the higher plane stuff? Sure. I think your critics here so far may be missing something or seeing too much.

You didn't say "leads to a higher plane than anthing else" or even "leads to a higher plane than non-BDSM interactions."

I think that there are further places to go for pretty much all of us. I think BDSM can be a great vehicle in which to arrive regardless of whether the accent is on the intellect or not.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 6:10:56 PM

Driver1961

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He enters and bows gracefully with His hat in hand sweeping before Him.(Trying to look every part the Metrosexual)

Very well said Noah. I did worry bout the 'obfuscation' but hell it's real hard to be a 'sandwich short of a picnic' when you're not.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 6:16:31 PM

Vendaval

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I would say the sharing of fantasies and creating Scenes with partners
along with the artistic exploration of BDSM art, music, theatre and
literature.

Vendaval

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 7:36:02 PM

ExistentialSteel

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Driver, to answer your question about spacing having an intellectual component, I think not. I will get very concrete here and say it is a vagal reaction to the sympathetic nervous system being in a continuous fight or flight mode. A machine could cause it. The use of fear is as close to it having an intellectual component as it comes, but that requires little intellect.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 8:56:12 PM

Driver1961

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Hi to Existential.

Thanks for the concrete answer and yes I agree with you on the basis of fear.
No arguments whatsoever however have you ever experienced a sub spacing not out of fear, no fear or flight mechanism? In my somewhat limited experience of 18 mths Lifestyle, my subs have not spaced from a fear/flight perspective but from an overwhelming sense of safety and security in my presence.
Are you saying the fear/flight response is the initiator of spacing whether there is fear or overwhelming security or did you simply state from the 'fear' perspective?

Warm regards

Driver1961.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 9:38:54 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr
No,it's the body escaping from trauma.

But the interesting thing about it is this..... I have also managed to take subs there with no more than bondage and tactile contact-no pain stimuli.

So it naturally occurs to me that it may be mental to a great extent-rather than merely chemical reactions.

actually scientific research is being done that shows that mental thought alone can generate chemical releases in the body. These chemicals can have a range of impact on behaviors that we will observe. So it is not beyond possibility that bondage and other non-pain type plays could stimulate the thought process that cause chemical releases that bring sub-space like effects.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 10:22:27 PM

mistoferin

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I don't think that what you are referring to is subspace. It is a "dropping" into place....but definitely different than subspace. I tried once in a post a long time ago to define it...or put a name to it. This is what I wrote about it then......

quote:

There is a feeling that I have gotten from the Dominants who I have been with in my life that I am at a loss for a name for. In talking with other submissives I have found that I am certainly not the only one who gets this feeling, although I have never heard an actual name put to it.

It is the feeling that you get when you are chatting and laughing with your girlfriends at a munch and your Dominant walks up and strokes your hair, the feeling that you get when your eyes meet from across a crowded room, the feeling that you get when you are hurrying around waiting for Him to come home with butterflies in your stomach...and He walks in and puts His arms around you, the feeling you get when you balancing the checkbook and he comes up and strokes your cheek......the list goes on and on.

The only way that I can really describe the feeling with any accuracy is to say that it is very much like the feeling that you get when you sit down to nurse a baby and that intense calm comes over you when the oxytocin is released into your body. It is like you can feel your mind stop racing, your heart rate and breathing slow and you become enveloped by a calm and serene cloud. It is sometimes as profound as a shot of Valium.

I have always described the feeling as a "settling into place", because quite often it comes at a time when I am pre-occupied with anything other than submission, and it instantly puts me into "submissive mode".

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/29/2006 11:05:15 PM

Caretakr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

actually scientific research is being done that shows that mental thought alone can generate chemical releases in the body. These chemicals can have a range of impact on behaviors that we will observe. So it is not beyond possibility that bondage and other non-pain type plays could stimulate the thought process that cause chemical releases that bring sub-space like effects.

That would explain a great deal that had me wondering. I have a very easy going demeanor that can be somewhat deceptive,in as much as I tend to put girls at ease..Never was one for the sort of sturm and drang so many seem to find being "dominant" is all about. I tend not to jabber a lot when doing physical things, so I don't distract them from going places. (but just try and shut me up the rest of the time

) Instead, I just let the bodies communicate in a primal,relaxed way.

Very zen like, I enjoy that. The intruiging thing, is that I can do this about 70% of the time, and have managed it with quite a few. So I guess it must be something in my methodology and manner that lets it happen.

Mistoferin describes it, as it had been recounted to me by others :

quote:

The only way that I can really describe the feeling with any accuracy is to say that it is very much like the feeling that you get when you sit down to nurse a baby and that intense calm comes over you when the oxytocin is released into your body. It is like you can feel your mind stop racing, your heart rate and breathing slow and you become enveloped by a calm and serene cloud. It is sometimes as profound as a shot of Valium.

I have always described the feeling as a "settling into place", because quite often it comes at a time when I am pre-occupied with anything other than submission, and it instantly puts me into "submissive mode".

I guess it has a lot to do with the intimacy of your energy fluxes. Never grasped why..just one of those things you chalk up to the great unseen, and accept.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/30/2006 2:47:27 AM

ExistentialSteel

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Hey again, Driver. I will pretty much have to stick with my point of it being a physical reaction even when we get into the mental aspects. Fear, which I used, can cause it, but that is the body reacting to what the person thinks is coming. Bondage could cause it also, I readily admit, but that is a combination of physical/fear.

If we think about it, one can be intricately bound without any words being spoken or other communication and the sub spaces. Maybe that is mental, but it gets into a grey area because it was caused by a complete physical stimulus. My best concrete example of it would be a machine of some type causing spacing.

One last clarifier, when you described that feeling subs get when feeling secure, controlled and warm where they happily obey, that is not what I’m referring to by spacing. That is more an endorphin mediated feeling of comfort. I’m talking more the classic spacing where pain is not felt and she thinks she is inside a swirl of pink cotton candy or something.

In any case, it was an interesting twist you put to the thread with your question.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/30/2006 2:51:47 AM

ExistentialSteel

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Mistoferin, excellent description of "dropping into place." Yes, that is what I meant by the difference from spacing. I should have quoted you in my last post.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/30/2006 5:30:23 AM

Driver1961

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Thanks for the clarification Exsteel.

I've read the 'dropping in' etc and yes do not question one's experiences. I'll leave it and say that in my experience it has been different than the 'dropping in' which I well acknowledge occurs and has occurred in my presence..

We are all different in our reactions, the beauty of being 'Individuals'

My primary case in point was my first sub. This is the most extreme/glorious of what I describe. We stayed at another couples and had played the previous night(10 hours earlier) with her usual deep spacing that completely surprised the couple.   Next morning all three were up getting breakfast and chatting incessantly about non bdsm issues. I arrived some 20 minutes later into the flurry of conversation and casually touched my sub saying 'Good Morning'. She immediately went silent, slid off the bar stool(like a slinky) to the carpet and laid prone moaning pleasurably but quickly became distressed as she was unable to gain control of her muscles..  The other Dom immediately began reassuring her that she was spacing and safe , with me waking up very quickly and reassuring her also so she restarted her pleasure.   Her body shook uncontrollably like a complete body orgasm. She consistantly described how she was feeling although I admit described in whispers as she had trouble talking.     This went on for some 20 minutes. Later she had little recollection of the experience- like deep spacing.

Yes we are all different and we could debate this experience endlessly with our own experiences. I would be interested if you or others could explain this occurence with your concepts/experiences and enlighten me further?

I have discussed this with realtime 'True Masters" and they were at a loss except to acknowledge that it was the dynamic that we both shared.   Something I could now call 'intellect'?! (Sorry just had to put that in!)

I introduced my ex-sub to L/s and since handing back her collar she has been totally Vanilla and not experienced any spaciness in my absence.

Warm regards to all, Driver 1961, Sir to His loving Wildchild.

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RE: Intellectual Components of BDSM - 6/30/2006 1:36:05 PM

ExistentialSteel

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Driver, now that was impressive. I almost want to ask what her Dilantin level was.

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