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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 5:27:23 AM   
jlf1961


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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 6:01:54 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		After awhile, we even forgave Nixon! Perhaps the American public is just happy he is an EX-President?

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(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 6:09:00 AM   
vincentML


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The Bush legacy will always carry the Cross of an unnecessary and cruel war, a criminal attack upon a sovereign nation who was no threat to us. Poll or no poll, like it or not, I suspect that will be the judgment of history. He was a small puppet man who succumbed to the madness of his criminal vice president and instituted torture, rendition, and warrantless surveilance. What an ugly time in our history. How far from the center of the American soul these two cowboy oil men took us.

Also, like it or not (and many loathe the thought) The Obama legacy is already set as the first Afro-American president AND with at least several major accomplishments: 1) the extraction of the nation from the ME quagmire, 2) the passage of the Healthcare Act, and 3) the passage of immigration reform and pathway to citizenship for 12 million taxpayers. Over-arching his legislative and policy accomplishments will be the undeniable achievement of the historical maturation of the American people (with some birther fantasists being dragged kicking and screaming comically) on the road to overcoming their historical racism. Up from slavery enshrined in their Constitution, defeat of the Slave Power in 1865, the dismantling of the night rider terror, ugly lynchings, prison farm plantations, jim crow laws to . . . the passage of the 1965 Civil Rights Act and finally to a Black president. History will show we came a long way to national righteousness.

Bush will always be a pathetic little man to history, who dragged us into a cruel war and went fishing while Hurricane Katrina battered New Orleans. One of our worst presidents.








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< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/13/2013 6:10:53 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 7:26:32 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
And was the architect of the new police state, don't forget that part.

You know that's a bit hard to pin on him in person. This thing that's going on seems to have been going on in governments for much of recorded history. IT seems to have been going on in our government for much of it's history. It seems to have really taken on steam somewhere around the Nixon era. Both parties want a surveillance/police state because it makes the people in power comfortable. I finger Obama for this right now because he's the guy doing it. I'll finger the next president when he is doing it.

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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 7:38:48 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
And was the architect of the new police state, don't forget that part.

You know that's a bit hard to pin on him in person. This thing that's going on seems to have been going on in governments for much of recorded history. IT seems to have been going on in our government for much of it's history. It seems to have really taken on steam somewhere around the Nixon era. Both parties want a surveillance/police state because it makes the people in power comfortable. I finger Obama for this right now because he's the guy doing it. I'll finger the next president when he is doing it.

The size and scope of our intelligence service drastically expanded under Bush and a lot of the stuff people, including you, are freaking out over were started under Bush and at present, assuming the data we have is accurate, have been reigned in by Obama.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 7:42:19 AM   
Lucylastic


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Amazing the memory shortage in some people isnt it

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(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 8:09:43 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The size and scope of our intelligence service drastically expanded under Bush and a lot of the stuff people, including you, are freaking out over were started under Bush and at present, assuming the data we have is accurate, have been reigned in by Obama.

I am aware of no such data. I get it that this is a cross party effort and I'm not fingering Obama solely. As I have said more than once, he is simply the guy in charge right now. Bush certainly put this on high speed. Obama, near as I can tell, has accelerated things not slowed them down. And he has continued in this tradition of secrecy and outright lies. His best defense now with PRISM is "you should trust us". Really?

Don't worry though Ken. Obama might well piss off enough liberals that they will vote Republican (as if that'd fix anything) if the Republicans can manage to pull their heads out of their asses long enough to field a candidate that isn't laughable. Then I'll be blaming that guy.

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 8:17:42 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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Status: offline 		The difference is- bush promised us NOTHING, and he delivered as much.

Obama promised us EVERYTHING, and delivered us NOTHING. There in lies the rub.

For the record I am a paul bot. I am deeply involved at the local level. I know things here that you will never see in the newspaper. I am doing what I can to make my town a better place to live- our local activist group picked up another member last night. There are over 25 of us in a town of 10,000. What you want for your town- go for it- make it happen- but let me/my town have LOCAL control.

(crowd claps. hunk bows- Stef makes an off the wall comment- cue to next post)

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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 8:25:45 AM   
JeffBC


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Status: offline 		I so wanted to get behind Ron Paul. When I started digging I found one too many smelly things -- even allowing for the smear campaigns. I'm not willing to throw blacks and women under the bus to save myself. Jill Stein was a much more approachable choice for me.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 8:27:20 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		At least you are thinking beyond the corporate 2 party monopoly Jeff- Bravo- question EVERYTHINg.

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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 8:40:38 AM   
tazzygirl


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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 8:45:53 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		never heard of him

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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 9:41:32 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The size and scope of our intelligence service drastically expanded under Bush and a lot of the stuff people, including you, are freaking out over were started under Bush and at present, assuming the data we have is accurate, have been reigned in by Obama.

I am aware of no such data. I get it that this is a cross party effort and I'm not fingering Obama solely. As I have said more than once, he is simply the guy in charge right now. Bush certainly put this on high speed. Obama, near as I can tell, has accelerated things not slowed them down. And he has continued in this tradition of secrecy and outright lies. His best defense now with PRISM is "you should trust us". Really?

Don't worry though Ken. Obama might well piss off enough liberals that they will vote Republican (as if that'd fix anything) if the Republicans can manage to pull their heads out of their asses long enough to field a candidate that isn't laughable. Then I'll be blaming that guy.

In the late 90's the intelligence budget was 26 billion roughly
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/08/politics/08budget.html?_r=0

In 2009 (the last Bush fiscal year) the budget is up to almost 50 billion. Even allowing for inflation that is a very large increase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intelligence_budget#Recent_news

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 9:44:18 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And stay far away from the Rand's.

Stay away from the Rand's what?

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RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 10:07:37 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		lol... the person that was addressed too knows what it means.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 10:26:36 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I am aware of no such data. I get it that this is a cross party effort and I'm not fingering Obama solely. As I have said more than once, he is simply the guy in charge right now. Bush certainly put this on high speed. Obama, near as I can tell, has accelerated things not slowed them down. And he has continued in this tradition of secrecy and outright lies. His best defense now with PRISM is "you should trust us". Really?

The surveilance began wayyyy long before Bush or Obama. Let's go back to yesteryear 1945 and Project Shamrock:

Project SHAMROCK, considered to be the sister project for Project MINARET, was an espionage exercise, started in August 1945 [1] that involved the accumulation of all telegraphic data entering into or exiting from the United States. The Armed Forces Security Agency (AFSA)[2] and its successor NSA were given direct access to daily microfilm copies of all incoming, outgoing, and transiting telegrams via the Western Union and its associates RCA and ITT. NSA did the operational interception, and, if information that would be of interest to other intelligence agencies was found, the material was passed to them.[3] "Intercepted messages were disseminated to the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs (BNDD), and the Department of Defense." No court authorized the operation and there were no warrants.

At the height of Project SHAMROCK, 150,000 messages a month were printed and analyzed by NSA personnel. In May 1975 however, Congressional critics began to investigate and expose the program. As a result, NSA director Lew Allen terminated it, on his own authority rather than that of other intelligence agencies.

The testimony of both the representatives from the cable companies and of director Allen at the hearings prompted Senate Intelligence Committee chairman Sen. Frank Church to conclude that Project SHAMROCK was "probably the largest government interception program affecting Americans ever undertaken."[citation needed]

One result of these investigations was the 1978 creation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) which limited the powers of the NSA and put in place a process of warrants and judicial review. Another internal safeguard, was U.S. Signals Intelligence Directive 18, an internal NSA and intelligence community set of procedures, originally issued in 1980[4] and updated in 1993.[5]

USSID 18 was the general guideline for handling signal intelligence SIGINT inadvertently collected on US citizens, without a warrant, prior to the George W. Bush Administration. Interpretations of FISA and the principles of USSID 18, by the Bush administration assume the Executive Branch has unitary authority for warrantless surveillance, which is under Congressional investigation as an apparent violation of the intent of FISA.

They began with TELEGRAMS! Aint that quaint?

It was Bush who tried to expand Presidential power and Obama who has acted responsibly.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 10:33:16 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The difference is- bush promised us NOTHING, and he delivered as much.

Obama promised us EVERYTHING, and delivered us NOTHING. There in lies the rub.

For the record I am a paul bot. I am deeply involved at the local level. I know things here that you will never see in the newspaper. I am doing what I can to make my town a better place to live- our local activist group picked up another member last night. There are over 25 of us in a town of 10,000. What you want for your town- go for it- make it happen- but let me/my town have LOCAL control.

(crowd claps. hunk bows- Stef makes an off the wall comment- cue to next post)

Not true, all ye with cotten candy in your memory banks. Bush promised a compassionate conservatism and a humbler foreign policy. What he gave us was an attack on Social Security and a criminal war.

And let us know how that LOCAL control pans out when you suffer a natural disaster and seek help from FEMA. In the meantime good luck getting the federal troops and black helicopters outta town.

25 paulbots in a town of 10,000 . . . sounds like a coup is brewing

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 5:01:27 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The size and scope of our intelligence service drastically expanded under Bush and a lot of the stuff people, including you, are freaking out over were started under Bush and at present, assuming the data we have is accurate, have been reigned in by Obama.


I dunno dude. At this point you are arguing with the head of the NSA. I suggest you take it up with him.

Despite the supposed decision to loop in more lawmakers on the process, Hayden said that Obama's decision not to stop, and even expand, the NSA efforts was "really good news" and something of a redemption for national security officials in the Bush administration."

Now, I am presuming that you are going to tell me that doesn't mean he increased the speed of growth he only continued the growth. You'd be right. Honestly, with all this secret squirrel stuff nobody could say what was true or not to such a fine grain detail unless you were intimately involved with it. Your numbers though are simply laughable. Do you really believe that these sorts of expenses come out of open budget items? Really?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 7:20:42 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The size and scope of our intelligence service drastically expanded under Bush and a lot of the stuff people, including you, are freaking out over were started under Bush and at present, assuming the data we have is accurate, have been reigned in by Obama.


I dunno dude. At this point you are arguing with the head of the NSA. I suggest you take it up with him.

Despite the supposed decision to loop in more lawmakers on the process, Hayden said that Obama's decision not to stop, and even expand, the NSA efforts was "really good news" and something of a redemption for national security officials in the Bush administration."

Now, I am presuming that you are going to tell me that doesn't mean he increased the speed of growth he only continued the growth. You'd be right. Honestly, with all this secret squirrel stuff nobody could say what was true or not to such a fine grain detail unless you were intimately involved with it. Your numbers though are simply laughable. Do you really believe that these sorts of expenses come out of open budget items? Really?

The warrantless wiretaps have ended. That means the NSA has been reigned in. Not that damn hard to understand.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Poll: Public starting to remember Bush fondly - 6/13/2013 7:27:25 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The difference is- bush promised us NOTHING, and he delivered as much.

Obama promised us EVERYTHING, and delivered us NOTHING. There in lies the rub.

For the record I am a paul bot. I am deeply involved at the local level. I know things here that you will never see in the newspaper. I am doing what I can to make my town a better place to live- our local activist group picked up another member last night. There are over 25 of us in a town of 10,000. What you want for your town- go for it- make it happen- but let me/my town have LOCAL control.

(crowd claps. hunk bows- Stef makes an off the wall comment- cue to next post)

Not true, all ye with cotten candy in your memory banks. Bush promised a compassionate conservatism and a humbler foreign policy. What he gave us was an attack on Social Security and a criminal war.

And let us know how that LOCAL control pans out when you suffer a natural disaster and seek help from FEMA. In the meantime good luck getting the federal troops and black helicopters outta town.

25 paulbots in a town of 10,000 . . . sounds like a coup is brewing



Well dont just sit there man. DO SOMETHING about it! You're the expert. LMAO

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 40
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