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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Interesting, thanks.

It doesn't, though, specify exactly when this has to happen. I'm dwelling on this not to be a pain but because one of my most vivid memories from years of Catholic education was a discussion on this point. Fr. Anderson, who held a doctorate in theology and chaired the department at my prep. seminary, stressed that we have no idea what goes on in the throes of death or how how many people God/Christ reaches out to then.

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BUT, current Catholic doctrine still requires faith in Christ before death.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Interesting, thanks.

It doesn't, though, specify exactly when this has to happen. I'm dwelling on this not to be a pain but because one of my most vivid memories from years of Catholic education was a discussion on this point. Fr. Anderson, who held a doctorate in theology and chaired the department at my prep. seminary, stressed that we have no idea what goes on in the throes of death or how how many people God/Christ reaches out to then.

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ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I should just add - that the corollary to not going to heaven is going to hell.

One could always hope for purgatory. Fingers crossed!

I stand corrected - but unless one denounces one's beliefs and accepts Christ - one is still looking at an eternity in purgatory....(!)

An eternity is such a terribly....long.....time......

If one goes to purgatory, then they will end up in heaven. Purgatory is like a shower before going to a big event. The goal of it is to "burn away" any impurities before you enter heaven.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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BUT, current Catholic doctrine still requires faith in Christ before death.

That I'm not so sure about.

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ORIGINAL: Owner59

And how long is this imaginary shower take........? A thousand to ten thousand years......I heard that......guess that`s why it`s called dogma.


This Catholic thing is a pretty good con......


On one hand,if one accepts Jesus as their lord and savior,they will be "saved".....


And on the other,if one doesn`t.....the burn in hell for FOREVER.......

Not much free will or free choice there, is there?


I mean......who the hell is going to pick door # 2?

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

How is someone supposed to exercise free will after death.

Although you posed that as a rhetorical question, it embeds the assumption that when our body dies we are dead in all respects, i.e., that death is the end and there is no continuation of experience.

K.

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Why?

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In other words, the doctrine, as it currently stands, assumes free will can only be exercised before death.

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What makes this one thing so different than, say, "Thou shalt not steal?" Yes, it's a commandment, but using Fr. Anderson's logic, we have no idea what goes on in the throes of death or how many people God/Christ reaches out to then. So does that mean we can go ahead and steal? Because God might take mercy on us, even though we knowingly turned our back on his teachings?

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Why?

Well honestly, I put more stock in Fr. Anderson's grasp of Catholic doctrine (he was, after all, certified to teach it to aspiring priests) than in strangers' posts on the Internet.

And both you and Kaliko had to make assumptions of your own--particularly, as Kirata points out, the very un-Catholic assumption that everything ends at death--to add a time-specificity that isn't in the text of the sources you cited.

I'm also struck by the fact that this "central tenet" is nowhere in the Nicene Creed, the affirmation of faith said by millions of Catholics each Sunday. In contrast, the creed mentions the judgment of the "living and the dead," which would seem to buttress Kirata's wise wariness of taking death as an end point.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What makes this one thing so different than, say, "Thou shalt not steal?" Yes, it's a commandment, but using Fr. Anderson's logic, we have no idea what goes on in the throes of death or how many people God/Christ reaches out to then. So does that mean we can go ahead and steal? Because God might take mercy on us, even though we knowingly turned our back on his teachings?

Two thoughts:

(a) Your scenario isn't all that different from someone's stealing (or worse) and making a deathbed confession while still clinically alive. Does that give folks a license to steal or whatever? And what do you make of the parable of the Prodigal Son?

(b) The Catholics I know (and that's a big crowd) strive to follow the commandments because they believe they're guides to a good life and deeper relationship with God. No doubt there are those who try to work the angles on how much sinning they can do and how late they can repent, but I don't know anyone like that.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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In other words, the doctrine, as it currently stands, assumes free will can only be exercised before death.

Is that the doctrine's assumption or yours?

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You are wrong in your interpretation.

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Fr. Anderson is entitled to his own beliefs. Free will. But that doesn't mean his statement is a reflection of doctrine.

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I really think you are confusing two different things.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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You are wrong in your interpretation.

And your qualifications for making that pronouncement are...?

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Fr. Anderson is entitled to his own beliefs. Free will. But that doesn't mean his statement is a reflection of doctrine.

Except that he was a devoted, learned priest teaching theology in a Catholic seminary, trying to impart the magisterium he loved to a new generation. So I doubt he was taking many liberties. And I trust his lifetime of wisdom and learning more than cut-and-paste posts on the Internet.

You too, of course, are entitled to your own beliefs, but that doesn't make them reflections of Catholic doctrine either.

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I really think you are confusing two different things.

Namely?

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meant God might take mercy in the way that Fr. Anderson was referencing (presumably) - after death, not before.