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Pope Stands Corrected (?) Actually, Pope's Statements ... - 5/29/2013 4:58:46 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		Okay. I tried to avoid the doctrinal parsing in the last thread, but it looks like the Vatican has beat us to it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

In other words, all people are redeemed (by the way, nothing new doctrinally here - this has always been the case). However, belief in Jesus is absolutely necessary for salvation.

In other words, the Catholic perspective (and nothing is new here) is that all people were redeemed by Jesus's sacrifice - which only means they are invited to heaven so to speak, but to actually get there requires belief in the Christian god. In other words, people who believe in Christ but sin their entire lives can be forgiven and go to heaven. Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, atheists who spend their entire life doing good deeds, while redeemed, cannot go to heaven unless they denounce their beliefs and profess faith in the Christian god before they die.

I guess I was too quick to think the church was actually trying to focus on good deeds. Nothing new under the sun.....sadly.....

p.s. if this is being discussed in the other thread, Yes, even Atheists http://www.collarchat.com/m_4452048/tm.htm, my apologies. I didn't see it there.



edited to change title of post

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/29/2013 5:42:41 PM >

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:02:26 PM   
Owner59


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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:06:57 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		I should just add - that the corollary to not going to heaven is going to hell. So to put a finer point on it, the Vatican is (still) saying that Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, atheists who spend their entire life doing good deeds, while redeemed, cannot go to heaven (i.e.,they GO TO HELL) unless they denounce their beliefs and profess faith in the Christian god before they die.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/29/2013 5:07:20 PM >

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:16:11 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I should just add - that the corollary to not going to heaven is going to hell.



One could always hope for purgatory. Fingers crossed!

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:18:17 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I should just add - that the corollary to not going to heaven is going to hell.



One could always hope for purgatory. Fingers crossed!


I stand corrected - but unless one denounces one's beliefs and accepts Christ - one is still looking at an eternity in purgatory....(!)

An eternity is such a terribly....long.....time......

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:21:14 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

one is still looking at an eternity in purgatory....(!)

Purgatory's a (slow) gateway to heaven. I don't think anyone spends eternity there.

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:21:16 PM   
searching4mysir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I should just add - that the corollary to not going to heaven is going to hell.



One could always hope for purgatory. Fingers crossed!


I stand corrected - but unless one denounces one's beliefs and accepts Christ - one is still looking at an eternity in purgatory....(!)

An eternity is such a terribly....long.....time......


If one goes to purgatory, then they will end up in heaven. Purgatory is like a shower before going to a big event. The goal of it is to "burn away" any impurities before you enter heaven.


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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:24:17 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

If one goes to purgatory, then they will end up in heaven. Purgatory is like a shower before going to a big event. The goal of it is to "burn away" any impurities before you enter heaven.



If that is true, then by the definition the Vatican is using, people who are non-believers are NOT going to purgatory or heaven. It is a major tenet of the Catholic faith that belief in Christ MUST be professed BEFORE death. There is no way to "burn away" the impurity of not believing in Christ.

So I go back to the prior statement: - that the corollary to not going to heaven is going to hell. So to put a finer point on it, the Vatican is (still) saying that Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, atheists who spend their entire life doing good deeds, while redeemed, cannot go to heaven (i.e.,they GO TO HELL) unless they denounce their beliefs and profess faith in the Christian god before they die.


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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:26:06 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I guess I was too quick to think the church was actually trying to focus on good deeds.

The entrenched hierarchy, yes. The Pope I'll take at his word. And since he is by definition the Vicar of Christ, acting for and in the place of Christ, he is the supreme ecclesiastical authority in the Catholic Church. So this has the potential to get interesting. Let's not throw in the towel just yet.

K.

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:31:16 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I should just add - that the corollary to not going to heaven is going to hell.



One could always hope for purgatory. Fingers crossed!


I stand corrected - but unless one denounces one's beliefs and accepts Christ - one is still looking at an eternity in purgatory....(!)

An eternity is such a terribly....long.....time......



Oh, I don't think anyone is getting into purgatory without a basic belief in Christ. They're just not quite pure enough yet for heaven.

Funny, that faith thing. It all hinges on belief. I don't blame the Catholic church for clarifying for its followers (or...reassuring them) that this very basic foundation still stands. If I were Catholic, turning the tables like that would cause me to lose faith in my church leaders.

The church, or at least people in the church, do good deeds plenty. I don't think that really has anything to do with this. Requiring a basic belief in the ultimate leadership (aka, Christ, God, deity of your choice) of the church in order to reap all the benefits (you know, eternal salvation) is not asking too much, I don't think. Of any church.




< Message edited by Kaliko -- 5/29/2013 5:32:46 PM >

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:32:36 PM   
dcnovice


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Two shallow thoughts:

(a) Zenit claims to be independent, though it clearly aims to support the Vatican. Anyone know if the statement had official clearance? It's not on the Vatican's own website.

(b) I found it oddly amusing that the HuffPo piece was itself corrected.

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:33:15 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I guess I was too quick to think the church was actually trying to focus on good deeds.

The entrenched hierarchy, yes. The Pope I'll take at his word. And since he is by definition the Vicar of Christ, acting for and in the place of Christ, he is the supreme ecclesiastical authority in the Catholic Church. So this has the potential to get interesting. Let's not throw in the towel just yet.

K.


Yes, I was wondering about that - about how the Pope could be "corrected". But if you look at the Pope's words he only uses the word "redeemed". He doesn't use the word "salvation" (or am I wrong?). In other words the Vatican seems to just be clarifying that the Pope was only referring to redemption and not salvation. So the headlines about atheists go to heaven are an inaccurate interpretation of what the Pope said. They've only been "invited" to heaven. Getting to heaven requires denouncing one's beliefs and professing belief in Christ. (And what is interesting is that this has always been the Catholic doctrine.) So the Pope was not saying anything new.

It's disappointing - but I admire the fact that you haven't reached my level of cynicism on this....

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:38:07 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Two shallow thoughts:

(a) Zenit claims to be independent, though it clearly aims to support the Vatican. Anyone know if the statement had official clearance? It's not on the Vatican's own website.

(b) I found it oddly amusing that the HuffPo piece was itself corrected.


The previous HuffPo article stated that Rosica said that atheists cannot be saved - which, as I've outlined, is not true. There is salvation for atheists if they profess belief in Christ before they die. So that is the correction they made.

I don't think the Vatican needs clearance to state what is already accepted Catholic doctrine on redemption and salvation Again, there is nothing new here.

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:51:30 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The previous HuffPo article stated that Rosica said that atheists cannot be saved - which, as I've outlined, is not true. There is salvation for atheists if they profess belief in Christ before they die. So that is the correction they made.

I just think it was a funny irony that an article about a correction itself needed mending.


quote:

I don't think the Vatican needs clearance to state what is already accepted Catholic doctrine on redemption and salvation Again, there is nothing new here.

Was it "the Vatican" speaking or just Thomas Rosica? His explanatory note appeared on Zenit, which describes itself as "an independent, professional news agency that does not represent nor belong to the Vatican." The note does not ID Rosica as a "spokesman," nor does it appear on the Vatican's own site.

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 5:52:49 PM   
dcnovice


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It is a major tenet of the Catholic faith that belief in Christ MUST be professed BEFORE death.

I hadn't heard that before. Mind sharing your source so I can learn more?

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 6:10:17 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

It is a major tenet of the Catholic faith that belief in Christ MUST be professed BEFORE death.

I hadn't heard that before. Mind sharing your source so I can learn more?



(I can't believe the Vatican is on Google.)


"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336




Source http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm






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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 6:18:01 PM   
dcnovice


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846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Interesting, thanks.

It doesn't, though, specify exactly when this has to happen. I'm dwelling on this not to be a pain but because one of my most vivid memories from years of Catholic education was a discussion on this point. Fr. Anderson, who held a doctorate in theology and chaired the department at my prep. seminary, stressed that we have no idea what goes on in the throes of death or how how many people God/Christ reaches out to then.

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 6:25:45 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

It is a major tenet of the Catholic faith that belief in Christ MUST be professed BEFORE death.

I hadn't heard that before. Mind sharing your source so I can learn more?


The Council of Trent (1500s): "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1).

The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.
Thus assisted, the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.

The Catechism (quoting Lumen Gentium):

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)

***

My reading of these suggests that free will is an important part of this process. How does a dead person choose faith? I know Mormons baptize people after death - but I do not believe the Catholic church believes this is even possible. If you have a different interpretation that comes from the Catholic church, I would be interested to see it.


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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 6:26:26 PM   
breagha


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Status: offline 		i suppose that those of us who don't believe in Heaven or Hell shouldn't be effected by this. i find it hard to swallow ( still ) that people cannot just let others believe and worship how they please. I personally think it is absolutely fine if all the Christians ( Catholics? ) of the world believe i am doomed to Hell for not accepting Jesus at the time of my death. That is their belief and their right to believe such. it will not change the fact that i don't believe the same way ( or things ) that they do... nor do the Buddhists, Jewish, Muslim ( and all other religions of the world not mentioned here )... so really it is just people telling people what they think or feel without any true consequence. Scare tactic used to convert maybe?

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RE: Pope Stands Corrected (?) - 5/29/2013 6:29:52 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

If you have a different interpretation that comes from the Catholic church, I would be interested to see it.

I think we were posting at the some time. In Post 17, I recount how this was treated in my Catholic education. Of course, Fr. A. was probably a lot wiser than the council fathers at Trent!

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