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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 12:35:59 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

We need to look into hydrogen, salt reactors, battery life, and a dozen others so that we can LESSEN our dependence on oil no matter where it comes from.


Maybe it's time to look at hydro-electric again as well.

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 5:25:22 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

We need to look into hydrogen, salt reactors, battery life, and a dozen others so that we can LESSEN our dependence on oil no matter where it comes from.


Maybe it's time to look at hydro-electric again as well.

There aren't a lot of rivers that haven't been dammed up already. Also in the Pacific Northwest dams have decimated the salmon populations which turn out to be a better economic engine than the lumber mills a lot of those dams were built to power.

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 5:26:55 AM   
DomKen


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And speaking of high gas prices:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/may/14/bp-shell-oil-price-rigging

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 6:03:02 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Refined petroleum is already our biggest export.
The only thing that "drill baby drill" and putting oil shale into production will do is increase those exports and the associated profits without reducing the prices to the consumer at home.

The rich get richer and we still pay out the yingyang for gas.


Are you saying that even if the u.s. was energy self sufficient we would still be paying what we do now for fuel? Omg

yupper

For those among us who are acknowledged cynics that might seem to imply that those ebil arabs from opec aint quite the equals of korporate amerika when it comes to fuckwadism.

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 6:52:38 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

The resentment from the left leaning posters to the pobability of American independence and meeting our own energy needs with our own oil is on full display.

American independence and meeting our own energy needs with our own oil is a socialist fantasy or a capitalist lie. When in hell will the oil be ours? It will belong to whoever drills for it. Unless you are advocating nationalisation of the oil industry the whole concept of our oil is bullshit. The speculators are paying nickels on the dollar for mineral rights beneath the land. Each well has a production capacity limit of about two years, so there is a race on to endless drilling and despoiling the land. The oil is refined and shipped to markets overseas. The price is set in the global marketplace based on aggregate supply and demand. America will never be independent of the drillers and their toadies in Congress who will continue to subsidize Big Oil and pretend they don't see the monopolies. National independence and capitalism are mutually exclusive concepts. Simply put, that's not what global capitalism is about. Myth mongering is all this thread is. Propaganda for the working class. Damn, maybe Marx had some of it right!

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 1:19:33 PM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

It's true that the US will never become completely "energy independent" anymore than we'll be completely independent with a host of other goods and services, even though on paper we might produce as much or more than is consumed domestically. For one, the US and Canada and Mexico wisely sell to or buy from each other based on logistics, where the oil production and refineries are located, where the refineries and distribution points are located, etc.

A US airline might sign a contract for fuel from Brazil because that's the best price they found at the moment, and likewise might some US produced oil or fuel find its way abroad, like as happens with millions of other goods and services.

But even sticking with that dubious terminology, most people in the US, even politicians, figured out 35 years ago that the best way to become less fuel dependent on unreliable/unstable foreign exports was to become ... less fuel dependent, period. Same thing with power generation: the less we used, the less nuke plants, the less fuel burning generators, the less environmentally destructive hydro plants, etc.

The average private/consumer fleet fuel economy made a significant jump from 75'-83', and ... we've been stuck at that level since. Of course the new mandates for 2025 will change that.

One problem is the difficulty in getting people to look beyond initial cost and considering life-of-use cost. GE came out with a new GeoSpring "ten year" hot water heater costing $1,200 that competes with $450-$650 same-life-and-capacity conventional heaters. Depending on local power rates, the total initial cost plus power bills equal out between 4-6 years. From thereon out the 'expensive' water heater becomes less and less costly than the 'cheaper' heaters. Just from memory, total expense was ~$400-$700 less over the ten years, and the majority of "ten year" heaters last longer than that.

Install enough of those things, and we've saved ourselves having to build another power plant, of any sort. Some modest bit of tax incentivization to builders wouldn't hurt, there.

Likewise with floor heating; much more efficient than the current conventional types.

Some combination of tax incentives and light tax penalties (to encourage/discourage accordingly) for builders of all types could get aggregate energy use (and cost) noticeably below current levels, even as population increases (as long as increase is slow enough).

Less financial cost across the board. Less environmental cost (fewer and smaller power plants), across the board.

The railroads, the telegraph and phone, radio, aircraft technology all had initial expense not recoverable within a short time, so both private and government financing, and their placement of large orders, got things rolling.

In the case of better (under floor, central) heating systems, the cost is only some noticeable amount more, the technology already exists; it's not like having to build the railroad system. Cost would come significantly down as the better systems became predominant.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/16/2013 1:31:57 PM >

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 3:38:44 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

The resentment from the left leaning posters to the pobability of American independence and meeting our own energy needs with our own oil is on full display.


Anything to stop invasions for oil is fine by me.



whats left?


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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 10:07:18 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There aren't a lot of rivers that haven't been dammed up already. Also in the Pacific Northwest dams have decimated the salmon populations which turn out to be a better economic engine than the lumber mills a lot of those dams were built to power.



Except now we buy a lot of our lumber from Canada and we still need energy.

I'm not unsympathetic to the idea of preserving our natural resources but design and technology have advanced significantly over the years and a dam doesn't have to be as big as the Hoover Dam to be useful. There are several small dams in my area that no longer have a purpose except flood control. Why not update them and put in a generator? They're not going to light up Las Vegas on their own but the idea here is diversification of supply. The various local city councils have talked about it from time to time but it keeps getting shouted down. The funny thing is that the only people who seem to think it's a bad idea are the environmentalists and the local electricity provider that already operates as a monopoly.

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"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/16/2013 10:35:44 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

It's true that the US will never become completely "energy independent"



Respectfully, I don't agree. I think eventually we're going to completely flip the entire energy game on it's head. Engineers are incredibly close to developing a truly functional fusion reactor. Their biggest problem right now is finding the right materials to construct one that can run without melting down. After that happens, we'll be able to manufacture all the gas and oil we need. Drilling not required.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/18/2013 9:03:04 AM   
DomKen


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Speaking of oil shale
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/18/business/energy-environment/mountain-of-petroleum-coke-from-oil-sands-rises-in-detroit.html?google_editors_picks=true&_r=1&

is this what we really want in the US?

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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/18/2013 9:15:43 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Refined petroleum is already our biggest export.
The only thing that "drill baby drill" and putting oil shale into production will do is increase those exports and the associated profits without reducing the prices to the consumer at home.

The rich get richer and we still pay out the yingyang for gas.
This is very sadly, the important part of the argument left out, when they sing "drill baby drill" mantra. Why ruin our supply, and our environment, if we can buy it at the same price from OPEC?
It is so irritating when people who simply want more money in their pockets come out talking, as if they are trying to save us from evil foreign oil, pretending they'll be saving the consumer a single dime. M


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RE: Is OPEC Done? America, Energy Self-sufficient by 2035 - 5/18/2013 9:44:30 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Are you saying that even if the u.s. was energy self sufficient we would still be paying what we do now for fuel? Omg

That would be my thought. US oil is not a US possession. It is the property of the corporation that drilled it. That corporation will sell it on the open market for as much as they can. In other words, we compete against the world market for oil. Were that not true then I wouldn't be paying what I do for gasoline in BC Canada.

The speculators rule.

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