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Kirata -> Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 1:56:08 PM)


Jonathan Turley has a piece over at Res Ipsa Loquitur on the creep of theology into law. He cites three specific bills:
    TEXAS SENATE RESOLUTION NO. 694
      ~ WHEREAS, Israel has been granted her lands as recorded in the Old Testament; and...

    OKLAHOMA HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 1007
      ~ WHEREAS, Israel has been granted her lands under and through the oldest recorded deed, as recorded in the Old Testament, a tome of scripture held sacred and revered by Jews and Christians alike as presenting the acts and words of God; and...

    IOWA HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 9
      ~ WHEREAS, Israel has been granted her lands under and through the oldest recorded deed, as recorded in the Old Testament, a tome of scripture held sacred and revered by Jews and Christians alike as presenting the acts and words of God; and...
Hurley claims this language is making its way into other bills honoring Israel in state legislatures across the country.

Is yours one of them, and what do you think about it?

K.




FunCouple5280 -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 2:12:58 PM)

It is dog shite.....

And the republicans wonder why they are despised....




Kirata -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 2:30:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

It is dog shite.....

And the republicans wonder why they are despised....

Yeah, I'm not really expecting a lot of discussion on this one. [:D]

K.




FunCouple5280 -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 2:35:24 PM)

well, what would you like to discuss?

Really, the bible as source of legal precident. the fact that states don't make international policy. Don't they have something better to do? who is paying for the ink on a worthless proclaimation?




Kirata -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 4:21:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

who is paying for the ink on a worthless proclaimation?

Apparently we are. Apparently we are paying salaries to legislators with a mindset that does not blink at incorporating scriptural preachings into civil resolutions.

K.








TricklessMagic -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 4:59:21 PM)

Oy Gevalt, seriously what the hell? This is just stupidity at its peak. Mind I'm Jewish and Pro-Israel, but I"m also a Republican and this is a horrible way to rejuvenate the American party.




kdsub -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 5:12:11 PM)

quote:

scriptural preachings into civil resolutions


How do these "civil" resolutions have anything to do with their jobs in the administration of their States?

Butch




erieangel -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 7:29:59 PM)

If I were anything but a white Christian American I'd be insulted by such language.

Wait a minute...

I am a white American, non-Christian, though I was raised Catholic, and I'm insulted. I really have no religion.





WebWanderer -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 7:52:40 PM)

Oh please... Theocracy isn't creeping into the government - it's been there the whole time. For example, the original version of the Pledge of Allegiance did not say "under God." That part was added in 1954. Same thing with "In God we trust" on the currency.




vincentML -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 8:46:09 PM)

Religion has always been a strong force in American politics. So, no surprise there.




Kirata -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/10/2013 9:06:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

Oh please... Theocracy isn't creeping into the government - it's been there the whole time.

And it's been actively working at creeping deeper.

K.









egern -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 1:27:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

Oh please... Theocracy isn't creeping into the government - it's been there the whole time. For example, the original version of the Pledge of Allegiance did not say "under God." That part was added in 1954. Same thing with "In God we trust" on the currency.



Really??? I had no idea! Thanks for that piece of info.




TheHeretic -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 8:04:44 AM)

If these are the sort of resolutions they look like, bullshit verbiage is the order of the day.

Nothing "creeping" about it, either.

George Washington - 1789

quote:

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.






njlauren -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 8:44:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

Oh please... Theocracy isn't creeping into the government - it's been there the whole time. For example, the original version of the Pledge of Allegiance did not say "under God." That part was added in 1954. Same thing with "In God we trust" on the currency.



Really??? I had no idea! Thanks for that piece of info.

Despite what the religious right droolers say, both of those were added during the cold war, primarily thanks to the Knights of Columbus (who are lucky when I see their freaks collecting money, I don't put a size 13 boot in their balls) as showing those godless communists America was the land of God...1950's special, that era the GOP so loves to claim was a golden age.




Kirata -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 8:52:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Nothing "creeping" about it, either.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between general references to God and incorporating the preachings of one particular religious tradition and one particular scripture into civil resolutions.

K.




TheHeretic -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 8:57:42 AM)

Right. Because after all, the Bible is the exclusive domain of fundy nutcases...

I get where you are going, K, I just can't bring myself to get worked up about non-binding resolutions from the Oklahoma legislature.




njlauren -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 8:58:57 AM)

The Washington quote was general, though he didn't write it, it was passed by Congress and signed by Washington. It was not unanimous, more then a few were troubled by the forced nature of this and the religious language. One of the things that come to mind was this was not a paen to God directly, it was not a general thanskgiving for God, it was for the blessings they believe God gave the US, including winning the revolution and the then new Constitution that had resulted in Washington being elected the year before (he took office in March, 1789).It was more gratitude that the revolutionists had perservered, rather then a homily to God.

And now to the portion the religious droolers don't want to mention:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, signed by John Adams (who thought not at the convention, was a prime shaper and influencer of the Constitution and government), and passed by congress, many of whom were what we refer to as 'the founding fathers' today, people who shaped the revolution and the Constitution.

As far as the text about Israel, this is part of the gobbledygook of the religious right with their freakshow visions of revelations. The religious right, that took over the GOP, has this belief that the second coming can't happen unless Israel exists, including supporting Israel to its so called 'traditional borders" (which is idiotic, a single Israel hasn't existed for almost 3000 years; at the time of Christ, it had been two Kingdoms, a southern and Northern one, for many hundreds of years). Unfortunately, if I was Jewish I would be skeptical, because said support is also tinged with a belief, that is outright expressed by the Southern Baptists, that for the second coming to happen the Jews have to be converted to accept Christ as the savior/messiah, otherwise, well, you figure it out.....support based on their own twisted ideology like this isn't doing Israel any favors, and Jewish groups who welcome the support of evangelicals may want to look a little deeper at the trojan horse they are being given.




njlauren -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 9:05:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Nothing "creeping" about it, either.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between general references to God and incorporating the preachings of one particular religious tradition and one particular scripture into civil resolutions.

K.


You can't have 'general references to God' without it being a specific religion..it is like people talking about generic prayers, they don't exist...and which God is it? The God of the Jews, Yahweh, is not the Christian God; God does not represent Allah, it doesn't represent the deities of various neo pagan faiths, and it certainly doesn't reflect the views of Atheists or Agnostics, either..so what makes this reference to God non particular religious tradition, when even those who use the term God don't see him/it the same way? It is like when I hear people talking about Judeo-Christian values, it is usually Christian conservatives saying that, because Jews would cringe at that, because Judaism and Christianity in many ways are quite different, despite the fact they share common teachings (not a big surprise, given Christ was a rabbinic Jew).




njlauren -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 9:10:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Right. Because after all, the Bible is the exclusive domain of fundy nutcases...

I get where you are going, K, I just can't bring myself to get worked up about non-binding resolutions from the Oklahoma legislature.


It isn't the exclusive domain of fundy nutcases, but it is the fundy nutcases who want to shove it down everyone's throats, especially given that the GOP (aka Hezbollah) has so intertwined with them we have politicians seriously talking about religion based law as being legal, including a Supreme Court Justice (who isn't fundy, he is orthodox Catholic, same thing). Do a google search on Christian dominionism and then you'll realize why some would get upset about a 'non binding statement'. It is like the symbolism of some judge like Roy Moore having the 10 commandments in the court room, it tells people of no faith, not that faith, or maybe who have been hurt by the bible and some of its more stupid teachings, that they won't get a fair shake, that they are second class citizens, etc. Imagine you are gay, on trial for something, and the prosecution brings that out, and the judge has the 10 commandments in his courtroom..think that gives the impression of another common object, justice with the blindfold, or does it give the impression "uh, oh, I have a redneck, fundy judge, my ass is grass, no way I an get a fair trial"..it isn't the resolution, it is the tone it sets from a goverment body.

And I hate to tell you, but liberal and mainstream churches (protestant and catholic) aren't pushing for school prayer, a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage, making sex between gays a crime, or trying to put biblical law into the law books as criminal law, that is all the fundies.




Kirata -> RE: Theocracy Watch (5/11/2013 9:37:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

You can't have 'general references to God' without it being a specific religion...

That's like saying you can't make a general reference to Theism without it specifying a particular religion.

Of course you can.

K.




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