RE: Are Subs really Subs? (Full Version)

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SeekingTrinity -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 9:32:31 PM)

~FRing it~

I was actually thinking along the same lines as you, NBMG. I found it ironic that OP spoke of other male submissives in the manner he spoke about them, yet his profile pretty much said the very things he was speaking out against.



iamalive888 -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 9:37:01 PM)

Yet again, NiceButMeanGirl, I'm not a slave or a true submissive. I enjoy pleasing a girl by doing things for her. Not being beaten or doing some weird chains and whips sort of thing. Yes it's a list of what I will do for the girl. She knows exactly what she is getting. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree being here. My goal is to find a girl that knows she is flirty and controlling to allow me to be in her control. Do her laundry, clean her house, massage her feet, buy her things, and be ultimately at her service but without sex. Isn't that incredibly submissive? To forgo sexual pleasure? Yes I do like it, but like some people get off on paddling, things that are painful for the sub is exciting and erotic to them.

Other subs profiles read like a sad story. I'm pathetic. I'm worthless. I want you to take naked pictures. I want you to do this. I want you to do that. I want I want I want. With mine it's hey these are some things I like to do for a girl, this is what I'm not looking for, lets chat and see where it goes. Yes there are some things I look for if it were to work. Sorry, just not into the slave lifestyle.

Mostly, we have assessed that I do not match with two Dom women on here. Oh well. We are looking for two different things. But clearly you people aren't listening. I guess that is a skill you lack. We can't ALL be perfect like you.



SeekingTrinity -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 10:02:43 PM)

OP, you asked and were given responses. So why are you bitching and arguing about the replies you get? Don't like hearing what others have to say, there is a simple solution to your problem.



iamalive888 -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 10:07:32 PM)

Oh is that what I am doing? More like defending myself from a bunch of whiners. I asked a simple question, but people take it upon themselves to analyze my profile (incorrectly I might add) and try to use it against me. I can listen to what others have to say. It's called a dialogue. But good job trying to divert away from the topic. I get irritated when people clearly don't comprehend the information provided. That has nothing to do about bitching.



LadyPact -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 10:15:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamalive888

Aww, using little demeaning words like kiddo. You must be a REAL Dom.

You can say ACTUALLY submitting, but whips etc doesn't necessarily mean you are submitting. You are correct that submission is in the eye of the beholder. My post was more like a comment that many guys like to state they are subs and will do anything for exposure, but then want someone to do all the work for them. Like "I love exposure, please take all my pics and post them around". They are really controlling a Dom like a Dom to get what they want to get off.

Little more, little less. Whether leather and whips gets you going or just the mind screw of having a girl deny you sex or sexual advances. It's all relative. If you want to yell and scream that I'm not submissive enough and I'm not into the things other Dom's want? Oh well. It's my life. I am honest and straightforward with what I am looking for. If that doesn't match up, so be it.

And like you said, if I was in some relationship with a sadist and I didn't like pain, I would not be submitting for them. But the easiest way to avoid this is to be upfront. To tell people what type of sub you are and to move on from that. Not make up tons of fantasies you will never do just to get off. That wastes everyones time, doesn't it?
I'd have called you cupcake if I was trying to diminish you. I used it because you are quite a bit younger than Me and also that you're not using the trimming of quotes the way that most with experience on the forums do. The thinking isn't really showing anything differently in the judgmental aspects.

I'm of the mind that nobody can waste another person's time unless they allow it. For example, I don't take 98% of the profiles here seriously. Right now, I'm guessing that you read more male sub profiles than I do. I could understand your reasoning if you were coming from the competition angle. Which, is actually smart from a male sub who wants to know what other males have to offer. I don't consider Myself in competition from other Dommes, so I don't have the same perspective.

Same thing goes for control. Nobody can control another person just by what they type up in a profile. Some people do use the profile for their fantasies and a large percentage of people will never realize those fantasies. At the same time, most Dominant women are quick to click the 'next' button when it comes to fantasy fodder. We're pretty good at spotting it.

Just to make things plain, I didn't yell and scream at you. I consider this a conversation. The fact that I don't agree with your approach has little to do with it.





SeekingTrinity -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 10:29:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamalive888

Oh is that what I am doing? More like defending myself from a bunch of whiners. I asked a simple question, but people take it upon themselves to analyze my profile (incorrectly I might add) and try to use it against me. I can listen to what others have to say. It's called a dialogue. But good job trying to divert away from the topic. I get irritated when people clearly don't comprehend the information provided. That has nothing to do about bitching.


Yeah, it's what you're doing in all honesty. What information did you provide? You bitched about other sub profiles. That's about it, homie. My thought is...why should it matter? Do you, don't piss and moan about others.



seekingreality -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 10:44:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: iamalive888

I feel most submissive men want to say they want to lose control and be taken advantage of, but they don't really want this. They want to feel like they are submitting. It's evidenced by all the profiles that say I want to do this that and the other thing. Wouldn't a woman dictate exactly what they do? Shouldn't their profile read this is what I will not do at all, everything else is up to the Mistress? That seems to me to be the proper way to go about serving.

Am I the only one that thinks a lot of these guys just want the fantasy but none of the reality?



There are probably more men that want some kinky fun than what you describe as servitude. And frankly, that's just as much reality as anything else. BDSM is a spectrum. Nothing is better or worse - it's all in the eye of the beholder.

As far as what people "should" write on their profiles, good luck trying to be the imposer of rules of how people should conduct themselves on the Internet. Basically people will act here in the way in which they think will give them the best odds of gaining what they want.



NiceButMeanGirl -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 10:47:57 PM)

iamalive888,

Dude. I realize most guys your age still think they know it all. But you posted on a public message board on the internet. Guess what. You don't get to screen the answers, you take the good with the bad. You get what you get. Just because you don't like the feedback you're getting, it doesn't mean we're all a bunch of whiners. It just means we're calling you on your bullshit.

The people have spoken and it's not just one or two who are noting that you are bitching about other subs doing the same things in their profiles that you are doing in yours. That makes you no better than the people you are bitching about. It's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

You can't expect to come on here and bitch about others and not expect us to read your profile. I normally do read the profile of a poster I don't know well yet, in an effort to get to know him/her better. If the majority of people are "analyzing your profile incorrectly," clearly you are sending the wrong message by what you are writing. If that's not the message you're trying to send, it's high time for a rewrite, don't you think??

NBMG



seekingreality -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 10:53:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: iamalive888

Oh is that what I am doing? More like defending myself from a bunch of whiners. I asked a simple question, but people take it upon themselves to analyze my profile (incorrectly I might add) and try to use it against me. I can listen to what others have to say. It's called a dialogue. But good job trying to divert away from the topic. I get irritated when people clearly don't comprehend the information provided. That has nothing to do about bitching.


Dude, a little free advice: If you come here and try to be the moral police and analyze how others should act, you shouldn't be surprised if people are going to analyze you.

I mean, first you are trying to dictate the "correct" way you think others should write their profiles. And now you're trying to dictate the "correct" way in which you think others should comment on this thread.

Just because you started this thread doesn't mean you control it. You don't get to dictate where the conversation goes anymore than anyone else does. Heck, if people want they are completely free to analyze you among themselves, while completely ignoring your comments and opinions about what you think of it all. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be on Internet forums. They are free-for-alls and people will do whatever the hell they want.



AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/7/2013 11:13:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: iamalive888

Oh is that what I am doing? More like defending myself from a bunch of whiners. I asked a simple question, but people take it upon themselves to analyze my profile (incorrectly I might add) and try to use it against me. I can listen to what others have to say. It's called a dialogue. But good job trying to divert away from the topic. I get irritated when people clearly don't comprehend the information provided. That has nothing to do about bitching.


OK, say we accept your premise. Some people who claim to be subs are not really submissive, they just want to play-act the role of the submissive while carrying out their very specific fantasy. It's not about giving in to what the dominant wants and putting their own desires second, so much as it is about an act or a scene that they want. You know what? I agree with you. That is very much what some people are looking for. And there is nothing wrong with that. There are also people on the other side of the equation who want that - we often call them service tops.

So, we agree that some subs are really bottoms looking for a specific scene.

Some people are not up-front about that in their profiles. They might be dishonest because they hope to attract more interest. Or they might not fully understand themselves what they are looking for. Or they might be completely new to this and think that everyone thinks like that and don't know it needs to be spelled out. Must be annoying for people who are interested and then get disappointed. I don't really understand why this bothers you though - surely the worse the competition is, the better your odds? I assume these male subs are not letting you down personally?

So we agree on two points now - some subs are not submissive, and some of those people are not upfront about it.

Now this is where you and I diverge. What people on this thread are trying to point out is that this is all very subjective. From your point of view, you are different from the bottoms because you want to do a woman's chores and not have sex with her. From someone else's point of view, you are still dictating the specifics of what you will submit to. Believe it or not, a lot of dommes are not interested in a guy she never gets intimate with, even if you are willing to buy her inexpensive clothing. It's not a case of 'not submissive' but more 'not submissive according to my own personal definition'.

Your snarky comments are pointless (other than attaching a number of negative posts to your username that future potential partners can read). Your 'real dom' comment to Lady Pact - well, yes, she is a real dom, a long-time successful one at that. And I say that as someone who would be NOT SUBMISSIVE enough for what she needs. It doesn't matter if I am an awesome and willing housekeeper, chauffer, personal assistant, take a beating like a pro - if what she really wants is someone to rub her feet and I won't do it, I am not submitting to her will.

The problem is not your initial premise, it's rather that it seems to be coming with judgment. You are implying you are better than those other people, and when you are being told that others might feel the same about you, you are lashing out in a childish way. I don't need to call you 'kiddo' because you are older than me, but if I were looking for what you are offering I would pass you by because I'd fear there would be name calling and sulking if things didn't go your way. The sad thing is, what you are offering is desirable to many people.

Short answer: nothing wrong with being a do-me sub if you can find a dom that wants to do you. Nothing wrong with being a service sub either. A lot wrong with all the 'better-than-you' attitudes you are showing.

PS- There is a difference between a no-sex arrangement and a cuckold relationship. Cuckolding is indeed about what gets the guy off, no-sex, not necessarily.



seekingreality -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 12:04:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders




Now this is where you and I diverge. What people on this thread are trying to point out is that this is all very subjective. From your point of view, you are different from the bottoms because you want to do a woman's chores and not have sex with her. From someone else's point of view, you are still dictating the specifics of what you will submit to. Believe it or not, a lot of dommes are not interested in a guy she never gets intimate with, even if you are willing to buy her inexpensive clothing. It's not a case of 'not submissive' but more 'not submissive according to my own personal definition'. .



I think you hit the nail on head here. The OP seems to have really rigid ideas on what the correct way to act is. And he thinks his narrow idea of submission is correct and should be the standard for everyone.

And it was a good point that his dictating how he wanted to submit was no different than the criticism he is heaping about others dictating how they want to submit.



wittynamehere -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 12:15:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
A lot of guys that label themselves as submissives confuse kinky sex with submitting.

Where she said "guys", the word "people" works as well.



LadyPact -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 12:24:02 AM)

quote:

Your snarky comments are pointless (other than attaching a number of negative posts to your username that future potential partners can read). Your 'real dom' comment to Lady Pact - well, yes, she is a real dom, a long-time successful one at that. And I say that as someone who would be NOT SUBMISSIVE enough for what she needs. It doesn't matter if I am an awesome and willing housekeeper, chauffer, personal assistant, take a beating like a pro - if what she really wants is someone to rub her feet and I won't do it, I am not submitting to her will.

Don't fool yourself about an act.

You are far too kind to Me. You should be kind to yourself as well.



zpenguin -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 1:21:21 AM)

Ok, After reading this interesting thread I have came to my thoughts on this one. The OP was asking a simple question, Are Subs really subs? Are they just wanting a fantasy instead of real life submission?

My thoughts.

A sub will only submit to things within their limits. Everyone has moral, physical, and logical limits. Which is how this kinda works.
Granted most (not all) like to be pushed to those limits but don't want it to go past that point.

As for a fantasy, all in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Every single person on here is different. Some want the real life experience some just want the idea of it. Thats just the way it is man.

Personally I learn things all the time, (pretty sure everyone on here is still learning new things all the time) every person i've ever topped or Dominated, had a session with, or just had conversations with have taught me one thing or another. The thing about this is you gotta have an open mind man.

And ok you checked other subs profiles and observed the competition smart to see what others say and have to offer, even though that honestly shouldn't have any bearing on your personal profile because when making your profile its supposed to be about you, not making yourself sound better or worse than anyone else.
Most people will put a little about themselves, what they are looking for, want, need, and their limits. Nothing wrong with that. In "real life" this is very important to know someone's limits. Other wise you may find yourself in a bad situation quick! Also, I personally like to know what my sub,bottom, or person i'm having a session with "LIKES" This isn't just about the Dom ya know. If your sub or bottom isn't enjoying themselves then chances are it will be short lived relationship. Sexual or actual relationship, it will be short lived.

Im not here to down you, belittle you, rip you to shreds, rip on your profile, or talk to you like a child. I know it can be rough hearing things that you don't agree with. I've been there, on this very forum. But, most people on here have real life experience that you can learn from. But I won't sugar coat anything, simply put, who the hell cares what anyone else puts on their profile? Does it really effect you or what your looking for?



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 4:02:15 AM)

I'm going to take the young man at face value as well.

In my mind, there are two basics types of subs, those who are submissive by personality and who submit to most people in many situations, and those who are sexually submissive and find they are willing to submit to a specific dominant individual who inspires them to do so. And then there are those who are naturally submissive by personality who have been inspired by a strong dominant (lw and Kana come to mind) to submit even more completely.

Both males and females can fall into one of these two categories.

However, what males and females fantasize tend to differ, with more males enjoying 'hardcore' porn and more females enjoying the soft porn found in most bodice rippers (as a general rule).

Despite this, I believe most subs come into this lifestyle the way most doms do, via the bedroom. The sex fantasies come first, either by accident or design the person finds someone who can fulfill that role, and voila, you have a D/s or M/s relationship in the making.

For me, submission of the non-personality variety is a progression. In other words, people don't jump out of bed one morning being 'the perfect slave.' There are some who never make it out of the fantasies in their head, others remain bedroom subs, others progress into the lifestyle and find someone to inspire them both in the bedroom and out. Some stay on the internet and pretend to be sub w/o ever having a hope of leaving their 'real' life.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being in one of these stages, EXCEPT that so many don't realize what stage they are at, and think being a bedroom sub means they're the slaviest slave around. Or they think being an online submissive makes them a 'real true' slave. Then they come on this forum to preach to us about how real and true they are and to evangelize about the righteousness of their opinion.

This is often the case when a person decides being a slave is somehow better and more fulfilling them being a 'mere' sub.

Having said all that, the OP would be so much better served at focusing on his own search, and doing whatever he can to improve his chances to attract a real time dominant.






Greta75 -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 7:50:04 AM)

quote:


Am I the only one that thinks a lot of these guys just want the fantasy but none of the reality?

The same can be said about doms who really expect a mechanical "YES" person to everything, and not expecting to handle a human being with opinions and emotions and objections, isn't that also fantasy and not reality? Because slavery is a "pretend" slavery, it's not real. It's not real because they aren't real slaves, they can walk away any time. Real slaves have no choice. Fantasy play and pretend slaves have choices and exercise their choice. They have the right to stop being a slave whenever they want, so they aren't really slaves.
So I'd say wanting real slavery is a fantasy and is illegal to become reality, unless you wanna migrate to countries where slavery is still legal, maybe Saudi Arabia or something.



iamalive888 -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 8:35:32 AM)

Thank you to the few who actually understood my opinion and question. Maybe it was phrased improperly. I'm not looking to dictate what anyone does on this site. That is their own deal and they can do whatever they want to attract whoever they want. Who am I to tell them what is right or wrong?

It's like my view on Christianity. Are you a real Christian if you accept all information from the Bible as true with no changes. Or do you modify it to fit your needs. Is there a certain one that is right? I guess that's in the believer.

Now does that mean all submissive must be no limits? I guess if you are following the exact definition of submission. But clearly we all have definitions that deviate from it. Some want to dictate, some want to fully submit.

The reason this came up is seeing all the Doms profiles where they complain about the Subs that want to dictate what they want to do instead of doing what the Dom wants. After looking around, I saw this is true as well. After contacting other subs it seemed evident they were out for themselves as well. That's why I begged the question are subs really subs? Shouldn't they be trying to submit fully to a Dom if that's what submission really entails?

Like Greta said, there is no way to ensure full slavery. No matter what, we always have the ability to walk away unlike say the Africans that were shipped here. It's a nice fantasy to have a no way out type of lifestyle, but to me that's unhealthy given the fact you wouldn't be allowed to have any personality or do anything for yourself. But yet again, that's up to the person to decide.

Sorry for lashing out, but I felt my viewpoint was being skewed. I'm not out to tell people what to do or how to be. That's their own life. I was just trying to open a dialogue about this and see what people believed.



LadyPact -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 9:02:47 AM)

OP, your analogy is a good one. The broad definition of the word Christian is 'a person of faith who believes in the life and teachings of Christ'. That's a pretty broad spectrum when you think about it. Frankly, some of the things that other folks do and (correctly) call themselves Christian irks Me to no end, but it's the common, basic definition that forces Me to say that they are just as entitled as I am to call Myself a Christian. I think it kind of works the same.

I try to remember that CM is very much a gateway site. You get a lot of people that stumble across the place that are just starting out, are fantasy driven, and that might be as far as they ever get with this thing. It's also a catchall kind of site. Any and all kind of interest that can be labeled kink brings folks here. The personal's side can be kind of a mess and that's why I don't deal with it all that much as far as profiles go.



SeekingTrinity -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 9:04:11 AM)

~FRing it~

Submission is going to be very different for each person in my honest opinion. For me personally, there is no such thing as the "perfect sub"...but there very much is the perfect sub FOR ME. I'll totally admit that the do-me types you spoke of originally are not what I'm looking for. But they are bound to be good for someone out there. The attitude Ive adopted in all of this is "to each their own." So when you asked "are subs really sub?"...that's really not a question I personally can answer because how we identify is very subjective.

And I'll let you in on a little secret, "no limits" is largely a big steamy pile of poo [:)] Everyone has limits in one way or another...they just happen to fall of varying points of the spectrum.

I think that there should be a bit of latitude when it comes to dictating what is wanted versus just submitting. Each of you s types have to make sure that you are submitting to the right D type for you. Too much do-me in a profile has me moving on to less rigid pastures, but I do still like to have an idea of what the s type is looking for so I know if its a good fit for me personally. A hardcore masochist wouldn't be happy with me because I'm not a sadist by any stretch. No way of knowing that though unless we put it out there from the beginning who we are and what we are looking.

I dig where you were trying to go. I think Athena really did a great job of summing up how it was coming across though.



itsapixie -> RE: Are Subs really Subs? (4/8/2013 11:04:00 AM)

FR

I think the meaning of submissive can range depending on the person and their experience. Just because a guy says he wants X, Y, and Z doesn't mean he's not submissive. Most people in bdsm and d/s, on either side of the coin, have certain expectations they want met. Whether it be sexually, emotionally, or whatever. If it's not about getting what you want/need from the play or relationship and having the other person respect your absolute no's, then it would just be a bizarre concept all around. I think the level of how much you're willing to bend in those wants, needs, and limits is what differentiates a sub from a bottom. A sub might be willing to allow themselves to be pushed further, whereas a bottom is set in their preferences. Both can still experience that submissive feeling, just at different levels.

And someone else already mentioned that there is no option for bottom or top on profiles.

If you're confident in your own profile, yet it is clearly being taken differently than you intended, maybe you yourself are viewing the other subs(bottoms, whatever) incorrectly. There is no standard.

Your immature attitude is very unbecoming and makes you come across as less legit :/



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