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I grew up attending Catholic schools. We started every day with classroom prayer at St. Mary's School, of course, but Sister Rosanne said THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VOLUNTARY PRAYER IN A PRIVATE RELIGIOUS SCHOOL AND PRAYER IN A SCHOOL PAID FOR BY EVERY TAXPAYER...

THIS IS REALLY AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN TWO KINDS OF PRAYER - VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL. I DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST PROBLEM WITH VERTICAL PRAYER. IT IS HORIZONTAL PRAYER THAT FRIGHTENS ME. VERTICAL PRAYER IS PRIVATE, DIRECTED UPWARD TOWARD HEAVEN. IT NEED NOT BE SPOKEN ALOUD, BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT AND HAS NO EARS. HORIZONTAL PRAYER MUST ALWAYS BE AUDIBLE, BECAUSE ITS PURPOSE IS NOT TO BE HEARD BY GOD, BUT TO BE HEARD BY FELLOW MEN STANDING WITHIN EARSHOT.

To choose an example from football, when my team needs a field goal to win and I think, ''Please, dear God, let them make it!'' - that is vertical prayer. When, before the game, a group of fans joins hands and ''voluntarily'' recites the Lord's Prayer - that is horizontal prayer. It serves one of two purposes: to encourage me to join them, or to make me feel excluded.

Although some of the horizontal devout are sincere, others use this prayer as a device of recruitment or intimidation. If you are conspicuous in your refusal to go along, they may even turn and pray while holding you directly in their sights.

This simple insight about two kinds of prayer, which is beyond theological question, should bring a dead halt to the obsession with prayer in public places. It doesn't, because the purpose of its supporters is political, not spiritual. THEIR FAITH IS LIKE DIAL SOAP: NOW THAT THEY USE IT, THEY WISH EVERYONE WOULD. I grew up in an America where people of good breeding did not impose their religious convictions upon those they did not know very well. Now those manners have been discarded....

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
As many of you may know, film critic Roger Ebert died this week from cancer. In his later years, in addition to his film criticism, he wrote on more political subjects. Here is one of those columns:

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I grew up attending Catholic schools. We started every day with classroom prayer at St. Mary's School, of course, but Sister Rosanne said THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VOLUNTARY PRAYER IN A PRIVATE RELIGIOUS SCHOOL AND PRAYER IN A SCHOOL PAID FOR BY EVERY TAXPAYER...
THIS IS REALLY AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN TWO KINDS OF PRAYER - VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL. I DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST PROBLEM WITH VERTICAL PRAYER. IT IS HORIZONTAL PRAYER THAT FRIGHTENS ME. VERTICAL PRAYER IS PRIVATE, DIRECTED UPWARD TOWARD HEAVEN. IT NEED NOT BE SPOKEN ALOUD, BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT AND HAS NO EARS. HORIZONTAL PRAYER MUST ALWAYS BE AUDIBLE, BECAUSE ITS PURPOSE IS NOT TO BE HEARD BY GOD, BUT TO BE HEARD BY FELLOW MEN STANDING WITHIN EARSHOT.
To choose an example from football, when my team needs a field goal to win and I think, ''Please, dear God, let them make it!'' - that is vertical prayer. When, before the game, a group of fans joins hands and ''voluntarily'' recites the Lord's Prayer - that is horizontal prayer. It serves one of two purposes: to encourage me to join them, or to make me feel excluded.
Although some of the horizontal devout are sincere, others use this prayer as a device of recruitment or intimidation. If you are conspicuous in your refusal to go along, they may even turn and pray while holding you directly in their sights.
This simple insight about two kinds of prayer, which is beyond theological question, should bring a dead halt to the obsession with prayer in public places. It doesn't, because the purpose of its supporters is political, not spiritual. THEIR FAITH IS LIKE DIAL SOAP: NOW THAT THEY USE IT, THEY WISH EVERYONE WOULD. I grew up in an America where people of good breeding did not impose their religious convictions upon those they did not know very well. Now those manners have been discarded....

Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times
I think Roger Ebert summed it up quite well.
As some of you may know, having read my postings here and on other related websites, I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, to the best of my ability. I strongly believe in "vertical" prayer - and strongly oppose "horizontal" prayer.
And, like the founder of Rhode Island, Baptist minister Roger Williams, I believe that the separation of Church and State is necessary in order not to corrupt the Christian faith. Any religious faith, spiritual belief or non-belief (i.e. atheism) is corrupted when that religious faith, spiritual belief or non-belief (i.e. atheism) is forced on others by civil and criminal law.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

And, like the founder of Rhode Island, Baptist minister Roger Williams, I believe that the separation of Church and State is necessary in order not to corrupt the Christian faith.

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ORIGINAL: muhly22222
It's about publicly shaming those who have different beliefs as being somehow "less than."

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marked by militant or crusading zeal

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I rarely agreed with Mr. Ebert's reviews and I am starting to believe that while we might agree on some of the politics, perhaps he's being either a bit to literal or a bit too scrupulous.

I was a raised a traditional Catholic and while I am by no means a practicing Catholic, anymore, I am a (Gnostic) Christian.

I was taught (and still believe) that blessing one's self before and after prayer is the correct thing to do. I was also taught (and still believe) that thanking the Great Creator for meals is the correct thing to do.

"Where's he going with this?"

Mr. Ebert's stance would seem to be that by blessing myself and then, praying quietly, I am engaging in "Horizontal" prayer. If that's his stance; I have an issue with that and he's engaging in exactly the kind of behavior (from the other side of the fence) that he seems to be against.

I think the wonderful thing about this country is that we can disagree and do so in a constructive and respectful fashion. I also think that people on both sides of the "religion argument" are a lot more alike than they care to admit.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I rarely agreed with Mr. Ebert's reviews and I am starting to believe that while we might agree on some of the politics, perhaps he's being either a bit to literal or a bit too scrupulous.

I was a raised a traditional Catholic and while I am by no means a practicing Catholic, anymore, I am a (Gnostic) Christian.

I was taught (and still believe) that blessing one's self before and after prayer is the correct thing to do. I was also taught (and still believe) that thanking the Great Creator for meals is the correct thing to do.

"Where's he going with this?"

Mr. Ebert's stance would seem to be that by blessing myself and then, praying quietly, I am engaging in "Horizontal" prayer. If that's his stance; I have an issue with that and he's engaging in exactly the kind of behavior (from the other side of the fence) that he seems to be against.

I think the wonderful thing about this country is that we can disagree and do so in a constructive and respectful fashion. I also think that people on both sides of the "religion argument" are a lot more alike than they care to admit.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I interpret it differently.

1. Blessing oneself and saying a quiet prayer thanking the Creator in a resturant is "vertical prayer".

2. Saying the prayer thanking the Creator using a bullhorn and demanding that every other customer in the resturant remain silent during that prayer out of respect for your religion is "horizontal prayer".

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Roger Ebert was discussing prayer, not religion. It would seem that you just put your views of religion to it, to suit the purpose of your comment.

If a congregation during their meetings engages in prayer aloud, it is not an example of "horizontal" prayer, because it is a group attending a meeting with others of similar beliefs.

For each of what you call "vertical religions" there are classes to learn, which, by your own definition would make them horizontal.

You have made more than enough previous comments about your views of religion, in fact you would be horizontally anti-religious. Yet, you lack understanding of the true meaning of most religions.

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ORIGINAL: Level

Ebert's example falls in between the quiet dinner prayer and using a bullhorn.

When some players kneel together after a game and quietly pray, which is that? Sounds horizontal, to me, but I don't see it as coercive, as he seemed to.