Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer

Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

Fightdirecto -> Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 9:02:26 AM)
As many of you may know, film critic Roger Ebert died this week from cancer. In his later years, in addition to his film criticism, he wrote on more political subjects. Here is one of those columns: quote: I grew up attending Catholic schools. We started every day with classroom prayer at St. Mary's School, of course, but Sister Rosanne said THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VOLUNTARY PRAYER IN A PRIVATE RELIGIOUS SCHOOL AND PRAYER IN A SCHOOL PAID FOR BY EVERY TAXPAYER... THIS IS REALLY AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN TWO KINDS OF PRAYER - VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL. I DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST PROBLEM WITH VERTICAL PRAYER. IT IS HORIZONTAL PRAYER THAT FRIGHTENS ME. VERTICAL PRAYER IS PRIVATE, DIRECTED UPWARD TOWARD HEAVEN. IT NEED NOT BE SPOKEN ALOUD, BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT AND HAS NO EARS. HORIZONTAL PRAYER MUST ALWAYS BE AUDIBLE, BECAUSE ITS PURPOSE IS NOT TO BE HEARD BY GOD, BUT TO BE HEARD BY FELLOW MEN STANDING WITHIN EARSHOT. To choose an example from football, when my team needs a field goal to win and I think, ''Please, dear God, let them make it!'' - that is vertical prayer. When, before the game, a group of fans joins hands and ''voluntarily'' recites the Lord's Prayer - that is horizontal prayer. It serves one of two purposes: to encourage me to join them, or to make me feel excluded. Although some of the horizontal devout are sincere, others use this prayer as a device of recruitment or intimidation. If you are conspicuous in your refusal to go along, they may even turn and pray while holding you directly in their sights. This simple insight about two kinds of prayer, which is beyond theological question, should bring a dead halt to the obsession with prayer in public places. It doesn't, because the purpose of its supporters is political, not spiritual. THEIR FAITH IS LIKE DIAL SOAP: NOW THAT THEY USE IT, THEY WISH EVERYONE WOULD. I grew up in an America where people of good breeding did not impose their religious convictions upon those they did not know very well. Now those manners have been discarded.... Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times I think Roger Ebert summed it up quite well. As some of you may know, having read my postings here and on other related websites, I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, to the best of my ability. I strongly believe in "vertical" prayer - and strongly oppose "horizontal" prayer. And, like the founder of Rhode Island, Baptist minister Roger Williams, I believe that the separation of Church and State is necessary in order not to corrupt the Christian faith. Any religious faith, spiritual belief or non-belief (i.e. atheism) is corrupted when that religious faith, spiritual belief or non-belief (i.e. atheism) is forced on others by civil and criminal law.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 9:17:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto As many of you may know, film critic Roger Ebert died this week from cancer. In his later years, in addition to his film criticism, he wrote on more political subjects. Here is one of those columns: quote: I grew up attending Catholic schools. We started every day with classroom prayer at St. Mary's School, of course, but Sister Rosanne said THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VOLUNTARY PRAYER IN A PRIVATE RELIGIOUS SCHOOL AND PRAYER IN A SCHOOL PAID FOR BY EVERY TAXPAYER... THIS IS REALLY AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN TWO KINDS OF PRAYER - VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL. I DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST PROBLEM WITH VERTICAL PRAYER. IT IS HORIZONTAL PRAYER THAT FRIGHTENS ME. VERTICAL PRAYER IS PRIVATE, DIRECTED UPWARD TOWARD HEAVEN. IT NEED NOT BE SPOKEN ALOUD, BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT AND HAS NO EARS. HORIZONTAL PRAYER MUST ALWAYS BE AUDIBLE, BECAUSE ITS PURPOSE IS NOT TO BE HEARD BY GOD, BUT TO BE HEARD BY FELLOW MEN STANDING WITHIN EARSHOT. To choose an example from football, when my team needs a field goal to win and I think, ''Please, dear God, let them make it!'' - that is vertical prayer. When, before the game, a group of fans joins hands and ''voluntarily'' recites the Lord's Prayer - that is horizontal prayer. It serves one of two purposes: to encourage me to join them, or to make me feel excluded. Although some of the horizontal devout are sincere, others use this prayer as a device of recruitment or intimidation. If you are conspicuous in your refusal to go along, they may even turn and pray while holding you directly in their sights. This simple insight about two kinds of prayer, which is beyond theological question, should bring a dead halt to the obsession with prayer in public places. It doesn't, because the purpose of its supporters is political, not spiritual. THEIR FAITH IS LIKE DIAL SOAP: NOW THAT THEY USE IT, THEY WISH EVERYONE WOULD. I grew up in an America where people of good breeding did not impose their religious convictions upon those they did not know very well. Now those manners have been discarded.... Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times I think Roger Ebert summed it up quite well. As some of you may know, having read my postings here and on other related websites, I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, to the best of my ability. I strongly believe in "vertical" prayer - and strongly oppose "horizontal" prayer. And, like the founder of Rhode Island, Baptist minister Roger Williams, I believe that the separation of Church and State is necessary in order not to corrupt the Christian faith. Any religious faith, spiritual belief or non-belief (i.e. atheism) is corrupted when that religious faith, spiritual belief or non-belief (i.e. atheism) is forced on others by civil and criminal law. Very nice insight from Mr. Ebert. Thank you for posting this, FD. When I look at things in that light, it's amazing how many churches I've been to that I would consider horizontal rather than vertical. And, I also know some people who do mean well, but are more horizontal than vertical. I'm also glad the horizontal/vertical meanings from your subject line weren't about his relative body position. That would have been way too creepy. [:D]

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 10:03:51 AM)
Bravo! and RIP

Hillwilliam -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 10:32:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto And, like the founder of Rhode Island, Baptist minister Roger Williams, I believe that the separation of Church and State is necessary in order not to corrupt the Christian faith. I really like the horizontal prayer vs vertical prayer comparison. The above resonated even more. I honestly believe that politics has corrupted the Christian faith. Christians have stopped acting Christlike since they got into politics.

muhly22222 -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 11:17:01 AM)
That's an excellent summary of the issue, thank you. Ebert is absolutely right. For most of the people who demand prayer in schools, ten commandments in the courtroom, or what have you, it's not about worshiping God or trying to live by his precepts. It's about publicly shaming those who have different beliefs as being somehow "less than." Another excellent treatment of the subject (albeit in book-length form) is "The Holy Vote" by Ray Suarez.

Fightdirecto -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 11:29:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 It's about publicly shaming those who have different beliefs as being somehow "less than." It's one of the interesting things that Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestants share with today's Evangelical atheists* - the expressed position that those who have different beliefs (or, in the case of Evangelical atheists, any belief) are somehow "less than." Note: I use the term "Evangelical atheist" as the Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "evangelical": quote: marked by militant or crusading zeal

Yachtie -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 12:43:39 PM)
FR Very nice OP. [:D]

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 12:43:48 PM)
Just fyi, there are many religions that are vertical rather than horizontal. There is no group/congregational aspect to religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto and no proselytizing directive. I am sure there are other religions that are vertical, too. The problem is that some religions are extremely horizontal. This then causes problems for the vertical religions, as well as other horizontal religions. I agree if we can get rid of the horizontal aspects of religion that would be a tremendous step forward. The problem is, the major horizontal religions have their horizontal nature front and center in their religious dogma. If a horizontal religion gives up the horizontal - well, is it even a religion anymore from a theoretical perspective? Maybe everyone should just convert to one of the vertical religions.....

MstSebastian -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 1:03:35 PM)
Very nicely said, both by the late, great Mr. Ebert, and by you OP :)

DaddySatyr -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 1:15:50 PM)
I rarely agreed with Mr. Ebert's reviews and I am starting to believe that while we might agree on some of the politics, perhaps he's being either a bit to literal or a bit too scrupulous. I was a raised a traditional Catholic and while I am by no means a practicing Catholic, anymore, I am a (Gnostic) Christian. I was taught (and still believe) that blessing one's self before and after prayer is the correct thing to do. I was also taught (and still believe) that thanking the Great Creator for meals is the correct thing to do. "Where's he going with this?" Mr. Ebert's stance would seem to be that by blessing myself and then, praying quietly, I am engaging in "Horizontal" prayer. If that's his stance; I have an issue with that and he's engaging in exactly the kind of behavior (from the other side of the fence) that he seems to be against. I think the wonderful thing about this country is that we can disagree and do so in a constructive and respectful fashion. I also think that people on both sides of the "religion argument" are a lot more alike than they care to admit. Peace and comfort, Michael

Fightdirecto -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 1:34:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I rarely agreed with Mr. Ebert's reviews and I am starting to believe that while we might agree on some of the politics, perhaps he's being either a bit to literal or a bit too scrupulous. I was a raised a traditional Catholic and while I am by no means a practicing Catholic, anymore, I am a (Gnostic) Christian. I was taught (and still believe) that blessing one's self before and after prayer is the correct thing to do. I was also taught (and still believe) that thanking the Great Creator for meals is the correct thing to do. "Where's he going with this?" Mr. Ebert's stance would seem to be that by blessing myself and then, praying quietly, I am engaging in "Horizontal" prayer. If that's his stance; I have an issue with that and he's engaging in exactly the kind of behavior (from the other side of the fence) that he seems to be against. I think the wonderful thing about this country is that we can disagree and do so in a constructive and respectful fashion. I also think that people on both sides of the "religion argument" are a lot more alike than they care to admit. Peace and comfort, Michael I interpret it differently. 1. Blessing oneself and saying a quiet prayer thanking the Creator in a resturant is "vertical prayer". 2. Saying the prayer thanking the Creator using a bullhorn and demanding that every other customer in the resturant remain silent during that prayer out of respect for your religion is "horizontal prayer".

Level -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 1:46:16 PM)
Ebert's example falls in between the quiet dinner prayer and using a bullhorn. When some players kneel together after a game and quietly pray, which is that? Sounds horizontal, to me, but I don't see it as coercive, as he seemed to.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 2:16:48 PM)
Roger Ebert was discussing prayer, not religion. It would seem that you just put your views of religion to it, to suit the purpose of your comment. If a congregation during their meetings engages in prayer aloud, it is not an example of "horizontal" prayer, because it is a group attending a meeting with others of similar beliefs. For each of what you call "vertical religions" there are classes to learn, which, by your own definition would make them horizontal. You have made more than enough previous comments about your views of religion, in fact you would be horizontally anti-religious. Yet, you lack understanding of the true meaning of most religions.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 2:20:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I rarely agreed with Mr. Ebert's reviews and I am starting to believe that while we might agree on some of the politics, perhaps he's being either a bit to literal or a bit too scrupulous. I was a raised a traditional Catholic and while I am by no means a practicing Catholic, anymore, I am a (Gnostic) Christian. I was taught (and still believe) that blessing one's self before and after prayer is the correct thing to do. I was also taught (and still believe) that thanking the Great Creator for meals is the correct thing to do. "Where's he going with this?" Mr. Ebert's stance would seem to be that by blessing myself and then, praying quietly, I am engaging in "Horizontal" prayer. If that's his stance; I have an issue with that and he's engaging in exactly the kind of behavior (from the other side of the fence) that he seems to be against. I think the wonderful thing about this country is that we can disagree and do so in a constructive and respectful fashion. I also think that people on both sides of the "religion argument" are a lot more alike than they care to admit. Peace and comfort, Michael I interpret it differently. 1. Blessing oneself and saying a quiet prayer thanking the Creator in a resturant is "vertical prayer". 2. Saying the prayer thanking the Creator using a bullhorn and demanding that every other customer in the resturant remain silent during that prayer out of respect for your religion is "horizontal prayer". For the record: I agree with your interpretation but I have to tell you that I have had "incidents" where people have (tried to) politely ask me about why I need to bless myself (and put my hands, together; to be completely honest). "Can you, please stop doing that around me?" My answer is always: "Sure" and then, I never have another meal with them. And don't get me started about the school principal who threatened to segregate my son for doing the same thing (Until I cross-threatened to sue his ignorant ass). Mr. Ebert's stance seems to put me in the horizontal prayer category and, as I said before; it seems like he's being just as "preachy" but coming from the opposite direction as some of the people that he seems to be trying to target. I know this may be a touch off topic and I've been out of touch due to the move but, I saw that he was sick, again, on Yahoo on Wednesday and apparently, he died on Thursday. The announcement on Wed. included the (seemingly typical these days) "I'm going to keep working" statement. He was dead on Thursday. Is there a chance that he had no fight left in him and took his own life? Mind you, I am not opposed to that action. I believe that people have a right to decide whan their life is no longer worth living. I'm just curious. Peace and comfort, Michael

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 7:45:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Roger Ebert was discussing prayer, not religion. It would seem that you just put your views of religion to it, to suit the purpose of your comment. If a congregation during their meetings engages in prayer aloud, it is not an example of "horizontal" prayer, because it is a group attending a meeting with others of similar beliefs. For each of what you call "vertical religions" there are classes to learn, which, by your own definition would make them horizontal. You have made more than enough previous comments about your views of religion, in fact you would be horizontally anti-religious. Yet, you lack understanding of the true meaning of most religions. I am a born Hindu with Japanese friends (from Japan) who are both Shinto and Buddhist. There are NO classes to learn anything in these religions. I can vouch for this for a fact. So before asserting that I don't understand religions, perhaps you should consider where the comment is coming from. My family includes both Hindus and Catholics. While, there is a VAST difference between the two, prayer still constitutes a VERY large part of ANY faith. In fact, I am hard pressed to think of a major religion with a large number of followers that does NOT include prayer. But perhaps you can educate me as to why prayer is not a large part of most major religions because I do not have the understanding that you do from my own personal background, that of my extended family and that of my friends. It is rather difficult to grow up anywhere in the world without a significant exposure to religion and I have had first hand exposure to more religions than most people in the U.S. because of my background.

muhly22222 -> RE: Roger Ebert (R.I.P.) On "Vertical" vs. "Horizontal" Prayer (4/6/2013 8:53:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Ebert's example falls in between the quiet dinner prayer and using a bullhorn. When some players kneel together after a game and quietly pray, which is that? Sounds horizontal, to me, but I don't see it as coercive, as he seemed to. I would say the amount of coerciveness depends on the situation. When I was in high school, I went through an atheist phase. After every game, my soccer team would invite the other team to gather at midfield, and everybody would kneel and a prayer would be said by somebody from each team. Maybe it's because my town is super-religious, at least in the outward sense, but I felt like I couldn't refuse and maintain friendships and team chemistry, even though there was no literal coercion. However, I could easily envision a situation where it wasn't as important that everybody be out there, and thus more of a group-vertical dynamic.

Page: [1]

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875