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RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/8/2012 9:17:07 PM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Obviously you do not think so...

But nothing changes the fact that a 6' 8, 220 50 year old male with a seven foot arm span and surgically created genitalia and breasts, who was made female by legislation not biology, is playing competitive college basketball with 18 and 19 year old women.

You haven't got a clue what I think.. trust me.

All you do is keep harping on and on about how some transgendered woman basketball player is a man because of the way she's physically built and claiming that the way you see it is some sort of immutable truth.

I got it the first time on this thread, I got it the first time on the Robert Kosilek thread too..

But OBVIOUSLY here you started a thread on a topic you haven't got a clue and what you don't really understand, and like it or not you're stuck with that.

_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 21

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/8/2012 10:12:18 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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Again... what I understand.... is that that six months ago, a 50 year old man got his birth certificate legally changed to say he was now a 50 year old woman so "she" could play junior college women's basketball with 18 and 19 year olds.

So tell what you think I don't understand?

(in reply to stellauk)

Post #: 22

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/8/2012 10:14:38 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UnholyBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Nope, FDD. While you may have your own definition of gender, the teams evidently go by legal ID. So she's female. Sorry if that bothers you.

Biologically, she was and always will be a male.

I call supreme bullshit on this.

So you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is a biological male and that you have the results of a DNA test to prove this?

Yes... easily.... His sperm procreated children.

(in reply to UnholyBear)

Post #: 23

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/8/2012 10:41:24 PM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Again... what I understand.... is that that six months ago, a 50 year old man got his birth certificate legally changed to say he was now a 50 year old woman so "she" could play junior college women's basketball with 18 and 19 year olds.

So tell what you think I don't understand?

You want to know? Okay..

If you think that someone, anyone, is prepared to go through the entire process of egender reassignment just to play basketball then I'm pretty confident that you haven't got a clue about what being transgendered is really all about and what the process involves.

For a start that's being ignorant. But to imply that this person is being dishonest and diminishing their entire identity as a result, that's when it starts to get offensive.

But we had a similar conversation on a thread about that prisoner Robert Kosilek. You're making pretty much the same assertions.

You must forgive me, but I really do feel that to continuing this discussion with you is probably going to achieve the exact same result as discussing it with a brick wall or pot plant.

Why not just stick with your opinion and have done with it? You just don't grok transgendered folk, I'm okay with that. But please don't draw me into a discussion where you're going to be repeating the same position over and over and over again.

I get it. Please, just deal with it, okay?

_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 24

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/8/2012 10:53:02 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Again... what I understand.... is that that six months ago, a 50 year old man got his birth certificate legally changed to say he was now a 50 year old woman so "she" could play junior college women's basketball with 18 and 19 year olds.

Sounds like some profiles I've randomly perved, over on the other side. They all start out, "NO MEN - NO MEN - NO MEN."

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 25

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/8/2012 10:55:28 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

Sounds like some profiles I've randomly perved, over on the other side. They all start out, "NO MEN - NO MEN - NO MEN."

I saw one the other night that said--- NO WOMEN! PLEASE NO WOMEN!

I really chuckled.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 26

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/9/2012 9:35:29 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Again... what I understand.... is that that six months ago, a 50 year old man got his birth certificate legally changed to say he was now a 50 year old woman so "she" could play junior college women's basketball with 18 and 19 year olds.

So tell what you think I don't understand?

You want to know? Okay..

If you think that someone, anyone, is prepared to go through the entire process of egender reassignment just to play basketball then I'm pretty confident that you haven't got a clue about what being transgendered is really all about and what the process involves.

For a start that's being ignorant. But to imply that this person is being dishonest and diminishing their entire identity as a result, that's when it starts to get offensive.

But we had a similar conversation on a thread about that prisoner Robert Kosilek. You're making pretty much the same assertions.

You must forgive me, but I really do feel that to continuing this discussion with you is probably going to achieve the exact same result as discussing it with a brick wall or pot plant.

Why not just stick with your opinion and have done with it? You just don't grok transgendered folk, I'm okay with that. But please don't draw me into a discussion where you're going to be repeating the same position over and over and over again.

I get it. Please, just deal with it, okay?

You want to believe all of that and live with a chip on your shoulder go right ahead but the reason for the post is to show how silly society is! If a man wants to go through drugs and surgery to look like a woman and spend the the time and money to do so... go at it lady! But don't try later to come off at some transgendered Jackie Robinson by playing women's junior college basketball and claim you are righting some kind of injustice!

I think one other other posters pointed out it wasn't the fault of Gabrielle Ludwig as she wanted it to approval and attention and I agree. AND... the Athletic Association should have put a stop to this farce!

(in reply to stellauk)

Post #: 27

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/10/2012 4:40:52 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

FDD
Biologically, she was and always will be a male.

And there in a nutshell is where FDD goes wrong. He (I'm assuming it's a he) subscribes to the very popular but utterly mistaken view that biology is a determinant of gender. Wrong FDD, go to the back of the class.

Biology is not the final determinant of gender, it's not the sole determinant of gender and often it doesn't give us any indication of a person's gender. In fact, FDD, gender determinations could be so much more accurate if biology was completely omitted from the equation. But of course that's news to you.

Can I recommend Gender Studies 101 to you? It seems you would benefit enormously if you knew what you were talking about.

_____________________________

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 28

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/10/2012 4:53:01 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

FDD
Biologically, she was and always will be a male.

And there in a nutshell is where FDD goes wrong. He (I'm assuming it's a he) subscribes to the very popular but utterly mistaken view that biology is a determinant of gender. Wrong FDD, go to the back of the class.

Biology is not the final determinant of gender, it's not the sole determinant of gender and often it doesn't give us any indication of a person's gender. In fact, FDD, gender determinations could be so much more accurate if biology was completely omitted from the equation. But of course that's news to you.

Can I recommend Gender Studies 101 to you? It seems you would benefit enormously if you knew what you were talking about.

So where does "gender" fit into women's competitive sports on the junior college level when one used to be a 6'8" 220lb male six months ago?

And you write as if "gender" is a self choice... well there I do believe I agree with you. But let's not go around and pretend that "Miss" Ludwig "was born this way."

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 12/10/2012 4:57:17 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 29

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/10/2012 9:12:41 AM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

I've been thinking about this off and on for a few days now, and I keep coming to the same point. I just don't see this as being good for women in any way, shape, or form.

This story is a great message for other transgender folks, but sends a pretty fucked up message to biological women. Even if she sucks, being born a biological male gives her certain natural advantages which she retained after her surgeries. This must be true if she is considered to be competitive with biological women 1/2 her age. Estrogen is not considered a performance enhancing drug though... In fact, being on estrogen means that she is doping to retard the natural advantages she has as a biological male.

Okay, they're fast.... she's slow. They have better moves because they are more physically fit. I get that. But she's twice as old as the girls she plays against and still considered to be competitive in spite of her age.

Consider this though: If a 50 year old ex-male is considered to be competitive with 19-20 year old biological women, what will happen to women's sports when younger transgenders start competing in women's sports? How many young, fit biological male/transgender women will it take on a team to make women in sports completely irrelevant? Make no mistake; coaches will try to recruit them if they can, because they have physical advantages that biological women simply don't have.

This is one of those "foot-in-the-door" things. If it's considered acceptable, then there will be an active push to recruit transgenders because women's sports do not receive the same kind of funding as men's sports. Men's sports get funded no matter how bad the team is. Men sports make money for colleges and men receive more sports scholarships for that very reason. Funding for women's sports is still performance based because they don't make as much money. Women's sports are usually funded from the revenues made off of men's sports, so a losing woman's sports team just don't get the best funding... Logically, as long as it's acceptable for a coach to take advantage of the benefits of transgender players to win more games and increase funding... they will. And they will offer their limited number of sports scholarships to more competitive transgenders instead of biological women.

It's all very well and good that women want to be supportive and P.C. about this, but the reality is that as soon as younger transgender women become more common in women's college sports, then the only way to be a successful sports-woman will be to have been born a biological male. The only real bright side to it is that no matter how many transgenders enter women's sports, there will have to be some token biological women on every team. They just won't be the ones getting the scholarships.

Whats the flip side here? Does anyone know of any biological women/transgender males leading their conference in touchdowns? I believe that testosterone is considered a performance enhancing drug. So, a woman who becomes a man wouldn't even be allowed to compete with men at the college or professional levels. Tough luck there ladies...

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 30

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/10/2012 10:11:52 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

SD....

Good points but "her" coach is saying how dominating "she" is as a player and while he is lauding this player"s skill and effort I am wondering if his choice of superalitves saying "Miss" Ludwig is going on to become "the most dangerous player in the state" was precisely caculated?

At 6'8" 220 with a 7' arm span and a life long history of the game, "Miss" Ludwig will be a presence in the paint and on the boards that is just large to ignore!

But what bothers me most is her stating that "she" is correcting an injustice. The only injustice I see is that one that has been pointed out twice now, were she a wan the amount of testestrone in her body would be enough to ban her for preformance enhancement.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 12/10/2012 10:14:56 AM >

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 31

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/10/2012 10:18:38 AM

absolutchocolat

Posts: 1392
Status: offline

FDD, when you get it out of your head that gender exists only in binary terms -- male/female -- then i think this could be a very interesting discussion. gender, like most other parts of being human, exists on a spectrum. i'm with tweak on this one.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 32

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/10/2012 11:47:17 AM

FatDomDaddy

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Joined: 1/31/2004
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And yet.... you can still not equate "gender" with competitive sports!!!

Ludwig could claim gender nutrality and "she" would still have a 6'8" 220 male body full of testostrone and a long basketball history as a man who is now playing with a bunch of 18 & 19 year old girls in junior college!!!

What part of this don't the "Gender" apologists get?

And how will this bode for women's sports???

(in reply to absolutchocolat)

Post #: 33

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/12/2012 8:41:58 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

FDD
And you write as if "gender" is a self choice... well there I do believe I agree with you. But let's not go around and pretend that "Miss" Ludwig "was born this way."

Ms Ludwig is playing as an adult I believe. The infant that has grown to become Ms Ludwig is not playing ball, the adult that is Ms Ludwig is. What relevance is her status at birth? It's particularly irrelevant if you really believe that gender is a "self choice'.

If that really is your view, on what basis do you object to Ms Ludwig's self-choice of, and expression of her gender? If you really believed that, and have thought it through, you would regard this entire issue as a monumental irrelevance.

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Post #: 34

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/12/2012 9:15:56 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: absolutchocolat
FDD, when you get it out of your head that gender exists only in binary terms -- male/female -- then i think this could be a very interesting discussion. gender, like most other parts of being human, exists on a spectrum. i'm with tweak on this one.

I agree that FDD's understanding of gender is lacking to say the least... or at a bare minimum something like 30 years out of date. But honestly I think I agree with his argument if you remove all the "MALE" crap from it. I don't actually care whether it's a male, female, or something else entirely. I do care about having something resembling a level playing field in sports though. I care about that for the sake of the females.

_____________________________

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(in reply to absolutchocolat)

Post #: 35

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/12/2012 9:34:33 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

FDD
And you write as if "gender" is a self choice... well there I do believe I agree with you. But let's not go around and pretend that "Miss" Ludwig "was born this way."

Ms Ludwig is playing as an adult I believe. The infant that has grown to become Ms Ludwig is not playing ball, the adult that is Ms Ludwig is. What relevance is her status at birth? It's particularly irrelevant if you really believe that gender is a "self choice'.

If that really is your view, on what basis do you object to Ms Ludwig's self-choice of, and expression of her gender? If you really believed that, and have thought it through, you would regard this entire issue as a monumental irrelevance.

Please.... relevance... the genes "he" was born with, the one's that gave "him" strength, endurance, hand and eye coordination and the 6'8" 220 male body Ludwig was given that allowed "him" to play men's college basketball in his early 20s and continue playing through "his" adult years until "he" decided to become a "she" and play and play women's junior college basketball.

My objection is that Ludwig does not belong on a junior college women's basketball court because of her male body!

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 12/12/2012 9:35:58 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 36

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/13/2012 2:29:31 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

I've been thinking about this off and on for a few days now, and I keep coming to the same point. I just don't see this as being good for women in any way, shape, or form.

This story is a great message for other transgender folks, but sends a pretty fucked up message to biological women. Even if she sucks, being born a biological male gives her certain natural advantages which she retained after her surgeries. This must be true if she is considered to be competitive with biological women 1/2 her age. Estrogen is not considered a performance enhancing drug though... In fact, being on estrogen means that she is doping to retard the natural advantages she has as a biological male.

Okay, they're fast.... she's slow. They have better moves because they are more physically fit. I get that. But she's twice as old as the girls she plays against and still considered to be competitive in spite of her age.

Consider this though: If a 50 year old ex-male is considered to be competitive with 19-20 year old biological women, what will happen to women's sports when younger transgenders start competing in women's sports? How many young, fit biological male/transgender women will it take on a team to make women in sports completely irrelevant? Make no mistake; coaches will try to recruit them if they can, because they have physical advantages that biological women simply don't have.

This is one of those "foot-in-the-door" things. If it's considered acceptable, then there will be an active push to recruit transgenders because women's sports do not receive the same kind of funding as men's sports. Men's sports get funded no matter how bad the team is. Men sports make money for colleges and men receive more sports scholarships for that very reason. Funding for women's sports is still performance based because they don't make as much money. Women's sports are usually funded from the revenues made off of men's sports, so a losing woman's sports team just don't get the best funding... Logically, as long as it's acceptable for a coach to take advantage of the benefits of transgender players to win more games and increase funding... they will. And they will offer their limited number of sports scholarships to more competitive transgenders instead of biological women.

It's all very well and good that women want to be supportive and P.C. about this, but the reality is that as soon as younger transgender women become more common in women's college sports, then the only way to be a successful sports-woman will be to have been born a biological male. The only real bright side to it is that no matter how many transgenders enter women's sports, there will have to be some token biological women on every team. They just won't be the ones getting the scholarships.

Whats the flip side here? Does anyone know of any biological women/transgender males leading their conference in touchdowns? I believe that testosterone is considered a performance enhancing drug. So, a woman who becomes a man wouldn't even be allowed to compete with men at the college or professional levels. Tough luck there ladies...

-SD-

SD, you bring up some points that make me feel uneasy.

Just a hint - using the term cismale instead of biological male saves a few keystrokes.

_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Post #: 37

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/13/2012 4:39:10 AM

freedomdwarf1

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Joined: 10/23/2012
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We don't have so many "sports" colleges or sports scholarships over here like they have in the US.

But surely, a girls/female team should be females?
In the same way that there are male leagues and female leagues of the same sport and they rarely play against each other on equal terms?

Yes, there are sports where there are 'mixed' teams too.
But they are quite different.
But... If it is a sport like mixed tennis/badminton for instance, don't the rules state that there must be ONE male and ONE female to qualify for entry into the tournament?
If a mixed team proves that the "female" was in fact a TG, they would be disqualified under the rules of the sport.

I do know that the amateur athletics and Olympic governing bodies insist on gender testing after the debacle of Caster Semenya.

I think all sports should do gender testing to see if they qualify for the relevant sport.
Regardless of surgery, hormone treatments and whatever else - chromosomes don't lie.
If your chromosomes show you are a male, you shouldn't be allowed to participate in female sports and vice-versa. Period.

I don't have anything against TG's, whether they are post-op or pre-op.
Whatever floats their boat on the social spectrum.
However, when it comes to anything gender-specific, such as sports, they should be able to pass a proper gender test regardless of how they "feel" inside or what they portray to the outside world.

I also take the same attitude with members of sites such as CM, Alt, Fet etc.
There are many TG's that correctly register themselves as "male" or under the TS/TG category.
But there are also a handful that register as "females" and that really gets my goat tbh.
They are not female and never will be.
And I really don't care if they 'feel' female or not - they just aren't. And that's my point.
I also know that many on here probably won't agree with me on this. lol.
However, CM moderators have told me to report such profile transgressions as "scammers".

Just my

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 38

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/13/2012 7:17:16 AM

VideoAdminChi

Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline

FR,

Locking this thread for review.

Chi

ETA: reopened. Carry on.

< Message edited by VideoAdminChi -- 12/13/2012 3:33:26 PM >

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 39

RE: OK she's a good college player but ahh she's a man! - 12/13/2012 4:14:04 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

Any explanation as to why?

(in reply to VideoAdminChi)

Post #: 40

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