RE: Jesus' Wife

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mnottertail -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 2:00:03 PM)
OK. Definitive answer. This is the /end thread situation. Jesus wept. Since they did not have Bob Vila synergystic action vicegrips that could be attached to his nuts in those days, there is only one other thing in heaven and earth that could cause that.

DomKen -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 2:16:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I grew up, a Traditional Catholic with the teaching of the "Magdelene Heresey". Since we weren't followers of the Vatican, we were encouraged to investigate and study Canon law, doctors of the church, etc. Once I did a little research (probably about the age of 13), I came to the conclusion that Jeses and MM were probably married for a couple of reasons ... 1) in those times, in order for one to be a rabbi, they *had* to be married and the disciples were constantly calling Jesus "Rabbi" or "Teacher" as well as master, etc. 2) Mary didn't finance his ministry for no reason, what-so-ever. 3) Jesus was a man and men in his faith (which he was "prefecting"; not "changing" according to him) were ... well ... look at number one. 4) It just kind of makes sense that someone who is as spiritual as Jesus was would want to teach his followers by example. Anyway, I don't know about the authenticity of this new papyrus but, it certainly fits in with what I've believed for over three decades. I once discussed this with a Rabbi who was an expert on the time period. His argument was that the Gospel of John, the only gospel not written by Greeks for a Greek/Roman audience, makes clear Jesus was married or that the author intended for his character 'Yeshua' to be married.

JanahX -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 2:23:38 PM)
I totally believe it - And have for a LONG time. It was extremely unusual for men back then NOT to be married. And knowing how the Catholic church butchered the New Testament to edit/re-write it to say what THEY wanted it to say to suit their own purposes, I dont believe a whole lot of what the original church has to say. Especially the way the bible(s) portray women. That right there gives me doubt about the whole thing. Also with knowledge that a lot of the things that are in the Bible, are actually taken from earlier Egyptian history - I just dont buy any of it. Also - MM was NOT a prostitute. The whole portrayal of her rewritten by the church is pretty sickening.

Rule -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 2:35:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JanahX Also - MM was NOT a prostitute. I agree, according to our modern and Christian norms.

DomKen -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 2:41:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JanahX Also - MM was NOT a prostitute. The whole portrayal of her rewritten by the church is pretty sickening. No where in the bible does it even make the claim. She was to be stoned for adultery not prostitution. From John chapter 8 quote: 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/8.html Furthermore it is not in the oldest manuscripts of John. It seems to be a deliberate attempt to destroy the reputation of MM by later church officials.

Rule -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 2:56:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen She was to be stoned for adultery not prostitution. I agree that she was MM, her identity as so often hidden from the reader by the early church. I do not doubt that she was no adultress. Likely, as in so many other cases, she set up the scene, enabling Jesus to respond in the planned manner.

vincentML -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 2:59:50 PM)
quote: I do not know that they imitate them. Where does it say so? Ohh, sorry you didn't get the memo. Not only do monks, friars, priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes imitate him with misguided celebacy, nuns are considered brides of their christ. quote: What is an animal? Per my definition those beings who spend all day having intercourse, or thinking about it, are animals. Thus there is a spectrum varying from a low degree of animalness to a high degree of animalness. Actually, the females of most mammal species have clearly defined estrous cycles during which they are receptive to fornication interrupted by long stretches of abstinence. Not sure about the apes and chimps but clearly the human female is not hindered by long stretches of absence of sexual want. I think it is safe to say that the Catholic Church has displayed an historic fear of female sexuality as strident as have many muslim traditions. The paternalistic hierarchy of the Catholic Church has struggled fiercely against moderninity and the unchastity of unmarried females.

JanahX -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 3:19:57 PM)
Youre absolutely correct - Magdalene, whose reputation as a fallen woman originated not in the Bible but in a sixth-century sermon by Pope Gregory the Great. Mary Magdalene is believed to be the woman accused of adultery and condemned to be stoned to death. Jesus spared her. It's never stated that the Mary who was almost stoned for adultery is Mary Magdalene. But if it was, and she was a single woman caught with a married man, it could have been through prostitution. But all those things are speculation.

graceadieu -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 3:21:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam Is this just an effort to irritate the Christians, specifically the Catholics in the same way as the film released on Mohammed an effort to irritate the Muslims? Watch the motivations of the celibate clergy. Probably not. There are dozens of early Christian texts that we know about that didn't make it into the Christian Bible (Gospels of Thomas, Mary, Phillip, Judas etc, a number about Jesus's childhood or Mary's life, books about everybody and their brother in the early church), and every so often one or part of one turns up in a dig or collection or cave somewhere and gets translated.

mnottertail -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 3:21:32 PM)
From John chapter 8 quote: 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. But Mary Magdelena was cured of 7 demons. There is nothing there that says that was Mary who was about to be stoned, hell it can't even be inferred, and we can be reasonably certain, though not totally certain I suppose that she was NOT the only woman in Judea or in Israel. But if he was creaming her knish, that might be reason he didn't want her stoned.....so there is that. Rev. Ron (Church of Jesus Christ, that isn't right)

FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 4:18:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I grew up, a Traditional Catholic with the teaching of the "Magdelene Heresey". Since we weren't followers of the Vatican, we were encouraged to investigate and study Canon law, doctors of the church, etc. Once I did a little research (probably about the age of 13), I came to the conclusion that Jeses and MM were probably married for a couple of reasons ... 1) in those times, in order for one to be a rabbi, they *had* to be married and the disciples were constantly calling Jesus "Rabbi" or "Teacher" as well as master, etc. 2) Mary didn't finance his ministry for no reason, what-so-ever. 3) Jesus was a man and men in his faith (which he was "prefecting"; not "changing" according to him) were ... well ... look at number one. 4) It just kind of makes sense that someone who is as spiritual as Jesus was would want to teach his followers by example. Anyway, I don't know about the authenticity of this new papyrus but, it certainly fits in with what I've believed for over three decades. I have been listening to the coverage of this on our local PBS affiliates, because the coverage has been the most extensive. Karen King is a very reputable professor and the artifact has passed the tests regarding it's time of origin. And Harvard Divinity School I'm sure applauds your role as "advocate". But I think it's also important to point out this REFERENCE on the scroll is being represented by Professor king as having been made in regard to Jesus by Coptics between 100 and 300 years after Jesus' lifetime. So the most this will prove on it's own is that it was believed in the early Coptic church that he was married. The other thing I want to clarify is that in the time of Jesus, I do not believe that a Rabbi even back then had to be married. I believe to fulfill the fullness of Judaism this was a big aspect. While I only half practice, I at least like the record kept straight.

Rule -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 4:18:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail From John chapter 8 quote: 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. But Mary Magdelena was cured of 7 demons. There is nothing there that says that was Mary who was about to be stoned, hell it can't even be inferred, and we can be reasonably certain, though not totally certain I suppose that she was NOT the only woman in Judea or in Israel. But if he was creaming her knish, that might be reason he didn't want her stoned.....so there is that. Rev. Ron (Church of Jesus Christ, that isn't right) Okay Reverend Ron, I take it back: the woman was not MM. Well done. You are the third person to catch me at a mistake. I lift my hat to you.

DomKen -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 4:25:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL The other thing I want to clarify is that in the time of Jesus, I do not believe that a Rabbi even back then had to be married. I believe to fulfill the fullness of Judaism this was a big aspect. I've read a bunch of seperate sources that say a Rabbi back then had to be married.

Rule -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 4:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I do not know that they imitate them. Where does it say so? Not only do monks, friars, priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes imitate him with misguided celebacy But where does it say so? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML nuns are considered brides of their christ. That appears to be dogma. i.e. neither interesting nor relevant. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: What is an animal? Per my definition those beings who spend all day having intercourse, or thinking about it, are animals. Thus there is a spectrum varying from a low degree of animalness to a high degree of animalness. clearly the human female is not hindered by long stretches of absence of sexual want. So? I do not see the spectrum disappearing because of that. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: What is an animal? Per my definition those beings who spend all day having intercourse, or thinking about it, are animals. Thus there is a spectrum varying from a low degree of animalness to a high degree of animalness. I think it is safe to say that the Catholic Church has displayed an historic fear of female sexuality as strident as have many muslim traditions. The paternalistic hierarchy of the Catholic Church has struggled fiercely against moderninity and the unchastity of unmarried females. And it paid off: Many Christian populations are among the most advanced populations on Earth, with the lowest frequencies of inherited diseases and evil and the most beautiful people. This algorith works for us. Let's not change it, lest we revert back to animal status.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 4:47:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata As we haven't had a religion thread in a while, here's an interesting news update: A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a papyrus fragment in the Coptic language that she says contains the first known statement saying that Jesus was married... A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a scrap of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a phrase never seen in any piece of Scripture: "Jesus said to them, 'My wife ...' " The finding was made public in Rome on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies by Karen L. King, a historian who has published several books about new Gospel discoveries and is the first woman to hold the nation’s oldest endowed chair, the Hollis professor of divinity. The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Perhaps there is more truth in some myths and legends than we credit. K. Well, none of the papyrus actually said he was (in fact) married, or had a wife ("Jesus said to them, 'My wife ..." ) but it certainly fits with Biblical phrasing "you are my children"...."I am your father".....etc. However, this certainly brings up a topic I've visited multiple times (having once been married to a woman who's father was a hypocritical "Christian" piece of human sewage, and could only see the word as written....not supposing that these people actually had real lives...my thinking was, and remains....as it says in the Bible....Jesus was a man...."just a man". Which suggests at minimum....he had urges like every other man and the fact that he said on the cross "My God....my God, why has thou forsaken me?" suggests even further....he thought like a normal man....ergo....why, in his 30's (when most men lived at best...scientifically anyway....into their 40's)....wouldn't he have had a wife....a companion, which is suggested multiple times in the Bible? Maybe (if he indeed didn't have a wife) he realized (long before us) wimmens is fucking crazy..... :) But he still would have made the same mistakes men today do: Finding one :) (If for no other reason than to clean up all that mess after a rocking kegger). (Said, of course...Copticly....in the most submissive of ways :) )

vincentML -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 5:48:13 PM)
Rule, you said: quote: And it paid off: Many Christian populations are among the most advanced populations on Earth, with the lowest frequencies of inherited diseases and evil and the most beautiful people. This algorith works for us. Let's not change it, lest we revert back to animal status. Earlier you also said: quote: If no spiritual energy is dedicated to sex, then more of it may be dedicated to matters spiritual, so indeed they may be closer to the Divine. Also: quote: remove those individuals who have the highest sex drive and who therefore have a high degree of animalness, from the reproducing population, causing the evolution within a number of generations of a population with a lower degree of animalness. It appears that you measure closeness to the Divine [I use your term] by our distance from animalness. The less animal we are and the more human we are, the nearer we come to the Divine? Sexual desire in the human female persists regardless of the state of her ovulation, however, unlike most other mammals. Are you saying then that the human female is cursed by her sexuality? That would seem to conform to the position of all fundamentalist Abrahamic religions. Or would you accept the contradiction that sexual energy rather than spiritual energy is the pathway to the Divine? Please clarify what you mean. Thank you.[:)]

FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 6:02:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL The other thing I want to clarify is that in the time of Jesus, I do not believe that a Rabbi even back then had to be married. I believe to fulfill the fullness of Judaism this was a big aspect. I've read a bunch of seperate sources that say a Rabbi back then had to be married. My cousin is single and I won't go into the whole family pressure thing and he teaches at JTS in NYC and he has always had this argument with my great aunt. Only repeating what I've heard year after year. What he used to say was that while it was "law" for all men to be married that there were Rabbis and others in that time who while perhaps frowned upon, exacted no penalty for their "celibacy" and it was kind weird. He also said something about celibate men temporarily taking women in those times to get around something, but I really wasn't ever riveted to that particular discussion. My Dad was usually in the background telling FAR more interesting Irish Jokes. It's a half breed thing.

Rule -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 6:26:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It appears that you measure closeness to the Divine [I use your term] by our distance from animalness. The less animal we are and the more human we are, the nearer we come to the Divine? Indeed. The higher a species or population evolves cognitive abilities, the stronger its spiritual communication with the Divine is - and conversely: the less need there is for such communication. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Sexual desire in the human female persists regardless of the state of her ovulation, however. Are you saying then that the human female is cursed by her sexuality? No, I do not. It is my impression that the female sex drive in Christian population is far lower than the male sex drive. This is due to the presence of sexually transmitted diseases. A female benefits far less from sexual intercourse than a male in terms of reproductive succes. Thus the suppressive effect by natural selection of such diseases on female sexual behavior must be expected to be stronger than on the males. Since both sexes run the risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases, male sexual behavior is also positively influenced: there are some indications that in populations in which sexually transmitted diseases are endemic, the rape frequency is four times lower than in populations in which such diseases are not endemic. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML That would seem to conform to the position of all fundamentalist Abrahamic religions. Christianity is unlike the other Abrahamic religions, which latter insist on total monogamic behavior in the female. The only exceptions are sects like for example the Amish, which also insists on such total monogamic behavior in the female - and which differ from ordinary Christian populations in having a high frequency of inherited diseases. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Or would you accept the contradiction that sexual energy rather than spiritual energy is the pathway to the Divine? Please clarify what you mean. Thank you.[:)] Sexual energy is a form of spiritual energy. Rabbits therefore are very spiritual beings. [;)] However, I think that it is better not to be a rabbit, eh? [8D]

vincentML -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 7:13:41 PM)
Rule; quote: Indeed. The higher a species or population evolves cognitive abilities, the stronger its spiritual communication with the Divine is - and conversely: the less need there is for such communication. Cognitive abilities? Not sexual drain? Now you are adding to my confusion. You did not mention cognition previously. ???? quote: No, I do not. It is my impression that the female sex drive in Christian population is far lower than the male sex drive. This is due to the presence of sexually transmitted diseases. A female benefits far less from sexual intercourse than a male in terms of reproductive succes. Well, I'm glad we agree that women are not cursed because of their sexuality. That is soooo ante deluvian. The female Christian has a weaker sex drive than her man? Really? And you have this impression how? It seems rather medieval, doesn't it? I don't understand how a female benefits far less from sexual intercourse. I mean many are capable of multiple orgasms, aren't they? That's what I heard. Guess I got that wrong, huh? quote: Christianity is unlike the other Abrahamic religions, which latter insist on total monogamic behavior in the female. Christianity does not promote monogamous behavior in its females? quote: Sexual energy is a form of spiritual energy. Oh, I see. So then, Christian females having a weaker sexual drive are not very spiritual. Got it. Thanks for clarifying [:)]

FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Jesus' Wife (9/19/2012 7:55:49 PM)
I got this from another poster here who's said merely; "You have to look at it from a technological point of view. Papyrus scrolls were the sms text of it's day. Follow the girl talk". [image]local://upfiles/1488921/1D2DD732E6AC46B98AF1C80ABE0992AD.jpg[/image]

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