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Gabrielle -> Old Fashioned D/s (4/3/2004 6:15:27 AM)

I wonder sometimes what became of the romance of Dominance/submission. The idea, that things come as they will, that progress is taken one step at a time. Where two people fall in love and just by nature and instinct they fall into their roles. Where no contract is needed, no negotiations.

I do respect those who use contracts and the such. I think it is a good way to protect yourselves and be clear on where the relationship is going. It just seems to me, this is the only way things go for the lifestyle.

I would love to hear from those who have a similar experience as myself. Where you met an amazing man, the relationship naturally developed over time where it only made sense to do whatever it took to make your partner happy and your partner would in turn do whatever it took to take care of you: guidance, discipline, setting rules, expecting respect at all times, but willing to give unconditional love in exchange.

Yes, at many stages he talked with me about what was to come. But never was he particularly explicit. I would hear something like "You are ready for me to take you to the next level. Do you trust me to take you there without question or doubt?" This was my opportunity to say no, but it was never a place for me to say, "Can you give me details and I will decide what I will accept and do and what I won't?"

I have my outlets for personal expression, but it always done with absolute respect and as a lady who loves her Dom. Then, if, and only if, he decides my feelings/thoughts need clarification, will he make the effort the do that for me. But sometimes, I am not to know what is to come until a certain time.

I understand where in some instances negotiations and contracts are necessary. Especially in situations with online meetings and 'swapping' (for lack of a better term-obviously something I have never experienced.) But I would love to meet others who never used those tools and experienced an "as it comes" situation in an "I own you and no one at any time will top you other than me" relationship. To not know in advance what your limits are and if/how they will be pushed or eliminated.



Perempt -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/3/2004 10:41:20 AM)

your post may have been directed to subs, but as a male Dom, I enthusiastically agree with your viewpoint.

As a Dom, I chart the course of development for sub. I am consensual to the extent that I do not begin enlarging her limits until she trusts Me sufficientlly to place herself in My hands, after I have answered all her questions, worked with her sufficiently that she KNOWS I am FOR her in every way a man can be FOR a woman, her welfare, her development as a person, her self-realization, which indeed IS My mission. Of course I wuld release her whenever she wished since I would not want an unwilling sub, the idea seems to Me a contradiction in terms.

nderstand that many in the life require negotiation and contracts, and to each his own path. But, the dangerous Rogues in this life( IMHO) are no respecters of contracts, and deceit is their first recourse. What good is their word after you are cuffed? And, the SSC routine is easy to fake as can be observed at any munch.

I share your view that the old-fahioned D/s is the most satisfying mode, and when taken in slow, patient steps with all the safety precautions, may be the safest mode, too.



UtahGoddess -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/4/2004 3:22:18 AM)

Any agreement, whether spoken or written, is only as solid as the integrity of the people who made it. A liar will lie...regardless of the medium.

I have seen contracts fail for a variety of other reasons as well.

1) They become too long and intricate. If they are too lengthy and detailed you run the risk that
A) Neither of you can remember them all
B) They become unrealistic in the face of day to day living and
C) The contract becomes a list of slave rules as opposed to a reflection of the responsibilities and agreements between PARTNERS.

2) They are used to berate one party for not doing rules 6, 20, 54 and 73 (facetious example) In the heat of a disagreement the contract is pulled out and used like a club to mentally beat one another.

(I could go on and on.....but I want to share why I think contracts are useful tools...as opposed to why they fail)

A periodic review of a relationship is beneficial to everyone involved. This is not a foreign concept as we apply these same principles in most other areas of our lives.

(EXAMPLE) When you get a job you are told what that job is. (What a concept LOL) You are measured against KNOWN standards of performance. You are periodically assessed and informed of how well (or not) you are doing within those expectations.

A contract should state a description (mutually agreed upon) of the standards by which we measure each other. By knowing what is expected from one another we are able to focus more on areas that are most important to our partner as opposed to being held to unexpressed standards and failing.

(EXAMPLE) If me and my sub owned a restaurant and he was washing the dishes, seating the customers, cooking the food, taking their orders AND bussing the tables..........he is FAILING in a lot of areas! If I never told him it was most important to me that he seat and greet the customers, I would be angry he is off doing other things. Both of us would be frustrated. On the other hand, if I TOLD him what was most important to me, he could concentrate his energies there....and we would both be satisfied. (And his position is simplified and he is able to SUCCEED)

A contract should be realistic in nature. It should reflect what "is", not what "might be", or "I hope I can's". It is a snapshot of your relationship as it is now...basic agreements, limits and responsibilities. By investing the time to write them out, it opens a dialog between parties and ensures they both (or more) have the same conceptual definition of that relationship and it's status.

Periodic reviews and amendments/retractions SHOULD reflect growth. Reviews should not be used to focus on where one failed or to hurt one another. The intention is to make the relationship better and fine tune it's elements. Over time, by comparing previous contracts with the new one you can see how limits and such have changed over time....etc etc

************************

I have rambled on too long...and I could go longer LOL But I will suffice to say I find contracts a useful tool. Are they necessary? No. No more than any other tools we use in our relationships are necessary. It is just one more implement some of us use to open and continue communication.

And afterall it is the communication that is most important, as opposed to the medium used to get there.

Ms Sandi



GabriellesDaddy -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/4/2004 10:49:43 AM)

Ms Sandi, I could not disagree with you more on your stance with a contract. Maybe when we are done writing a contract we could have fill in blank test for our subs or maybe we sit down and ask the sub "So according to our contract, how do you feel I am doing?" When a sub enters in under me it is from one of trust and commiment not of here's a piece of paper and becasue of this piece of paper I will submit only to the guidlelines outlined here. As a master I need the flexibility and choice to move in any directions at anytime. There are moments that arrive that a particular area of my subs life that i really want to show her and help her through I need to do X and if I can't, due to a contract ,then what good am I doing my sub? The only contract I ever have with my sub is of this "THe front door is always there; you can leave at anytime that you feel this is not for you" and that is it. They are there under free will not force. Furthermore there are times you need to teach true submission. Example: lets say the area is serving. Well anyone can serve but lets say you throw a curve ball at them to teach them to adjust in a situation that they are not accustomed to. How can you do that if its already laid out for them in a contract? I believe a sub should be able to serve in the moment. And the most important thing is a sub should be looking to you for guidance not a piece of paper. There is nothing more beautiful than a sub who wants to please and serve with all their heart and is continually assesing the situation in which they have been put in and calling on past lessons that they have been been through to best serve and submit in the situation currently. And if a dom is good and cares he would have already equipped his sub with all the tools either known to her, or she has not yet discovered she has, to serve and submit to their master. Contracts limit both the sub and the dom and puts the limits and the trust in the wrong place. Once again if its a free will D/s realtionship the front door is always there with or without a contract. This is also why I believe if you have a strong D/s realtiosnhip it is stronger and more meaningful than marriage that has a "contract". I believe before entering into a realtionship of this magnitude you must have already decided whether to surrender this much control to someone or to invest the time to help someone to surrender and train to reach their full potential. A contact presents limitations and boudaries for a sub and a master. It is a Dom's responsibility to know his own subs limitations and boundaries. Often a sub is not aware that she has already been given what she needs and the strength necessary to overcome her own limits. When a situation arises that provides opportunity for her to see that and experience the conquering of her own self-imposed limits, a Dom should be free to do what is necessary to help her through that when she is ready. One of the key elements in submission is trust. A sub needs to trust in her Dom to know what is best for her. No contract can outline trust or anticipate the level of trust and submission or Dominance that can evolve beautifully between the two.



UtahGoddess -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/4/2004 4:45:38 PM)

GabriellesDaddy

I have never known contracts to limit my flexibility in a relationship. I don't do things because they are in a contract....they are a part of the contract because I DO them.

There is a big difference.

You talk about trust and surrender being given by the submissive. Neither of those abilities are instant. Both take time to cultivate and grow. Trust is built through observaion over time. Subs judge us on many levels, from our decisions regarding them to our temperment and everywhere in between. As they grow to trust us more and more, they are able to surrender more of themselves. They do not surrender because we call ourselves "Dom/me" but because we have proven our leadership.

Whether you have a written contract or not, you are held to expectations and judged accordingly.......and vice versa. Flexibility is required in any relationship, along with effort. A contract does not limit one's ability to communicate or perform, it simply defines our expectations as they are now.

I expect my boys to express themselves. They are entitled to their own wants, needs, feelings and goals....which may, or may not, be the same as mine. I base my decisions and training on what is best for them, what is best for the relationship and lastly...what is best for me. I am not a subscriber to the "my way or the highway" mentality. A relationship is not about my way or your way. It is about OUR way.

I find contracts a useful tool in that they open communication and ensure we both have the same understanding of where we are and what we are trying to build. A tool is used to create and modify something else, it is not the thing itself. Don't confuse the hammer with the house.

Ms Sandi



iwillserveu -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/4/2004 5:09:08 PM)

As one who has used contracts, I agree with you. There is more, but it may be specific to me.

(Enter Nietzsche) I am a superman (to me). The only thing that can truly bind me is another superman. I don't know one other than me. By putting my words forth (in a manner I'll remember) I bind myself to Her service.

(Before it happens, Nietzsche was as much a Nazi as Marx was a Stalinist. And 'superman' is a translation of 'ubermench'(sp?) not a guy in red and blue tights flying around Metroplolis.[:)])

In my contracts in the past most clauses were clearly favoring the Domme, but helped me to see exactly what I was doing.



Estring -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/4/2004 6:46:24 PM)

This is all sounding so romantic. [:D]



Gabrielle -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/4/2004 7:01:32 PM)

Ms Sandi
I'm truly happy that the contracts have helped you and your subs to see eye to eye and thats great. I'd much rather have my sub and myself see eye to eye through every day life and experiences instead of a piece of paper ect ect ect. As far as the whole trust and time thing I think thats what happens before you collar your sub ect ect ect. I guess it doesnt matter as long as your way works for you and my way works for me. Have a good night I'm sure we'll talk again.

NOTE: This is written by GabriellesDaddy not Gabrielle



UtahGoddess -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 6:46:18 AM)

"I'd much rather have my sub and myself see eye to eye through every day life and experiences instead of a piece of paper ect ect ect. "

I find it interesting that you insist that having a contract eliminates normal communication and growth. I am curious to know your definition of a contract and it's purpose.

"As far as the whole trust and time thing I think thats what happens before you collar your sub ect ect ect. "

Maybe this is why we seem so polarized.

First, I don't see trust as something that has a finite point of attainment. It continues to grow (or diminish) throughout your interaction together.

Second, I don't subscribe to "collaring". I had never heard of collaring until I ventured online in 1992. Having already spent nearly 8 years in the lifestyle I assumed it was a cyber fad as collars were exchanged, returned, and passed around with seemingly little meaning or commitment.

In the last 10 years collaring has found a place in the community outside of cyberspace. For those that use them, it has great sybolic meaning and importance and I am happy for them.

Lastly.....I am not romantically involved or committed to most of the subs that serve me. For some I am a Top, to others a Mentor, some are in my "charge" and belong to another and others I counsel and train to help them better themselves individually. As an active member and leader in my local Community I am solicited to perform many duties from mediation to giving seminars, etc etc.

Enough for now

Ms Sandi



sub4hire -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 12:01:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabrielle

I wonder sometimes what became of the romance of Dominance/submission. The idea, that things come as they will, that progress is taken one step at a time. Where two people fall in love and just by nature and instinct they fall into their roles. Where no contract is needed, no negotiations.



I do respect those who use contracts and the such. I think it is a good way to protect yourselves and be clear on where the relationship is going. It just seems to me, this is the only way things go for the lifestyle.

I would love to hear from those who have a similar experience as myself. Where you met an amazing man, the relationship naturally developed over time where it only made sense to do whatever it took to make your partner happy and your partner would in turn do whatever it took to take care of you: guidance, discipline, setting rules, expecting respect at all times, but willing to give unconditional love in exchange.

Yes, at many stages he talked with me about what was to come. But never was he particularly explicit. I would hear something like "You are ready for me to take you to the next level. Do you trust me to take you there without question or doubt?" This was my opportunity to say no, but it was never a place for me to say, "Can you give me details and I will decide what I will accept and do and what I won't?"

I have my outlets for personal expression, but it always done with absolute respect and as a lady who loves her Dom. Then, if, and only if, he decides my feelings/thoughts need clarification, will he make the effort the do that for me. But sometimes, I am not to know what is to come until a certain time.

I understand where in some instances negotiations and contracts are necessary. Especially in situations with online meetings and 'swapping' (for lack of a better term-obviously something I have never experienced.) But I would love to meet others who never used those tools and experienced an "as it comes" situation in an "I own you and no one at any time will top you other than me" relationship. To not know in advance what your limits are and if/how they will be pushed or eliminated.



I think the lifestyle is still there. Its just hidden beneath the internet rubbish. People who are truly committed to each other do not have contracts. At least none of the ones I have known. I'm sure they are out there. I've never had one. I've only had two Doms in my life. When seeking...yep I had about 1000 total I started negotiations with then discarded for various reasons. Many of them wanted contracts. If my current Dom wanted one. I guess we'd talk and re-negotiate. I don't think he would. He already has me..what's to talk about?

Feminism destroyed the roles. I really don't know if the roles will come back. There was another post here about the 50's wife. When I said, well that is how we live. A few people put me down for thinking that way even when we all live within the lifestyle.
Odd...but..we are all different human beings I guess.



Gabrielle -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 1:01:38 PM)

Gloria,

Thank you so much for your input! It is nice to come across someone similar to myself. I agree, Daddy has me...what's there to talk about?

And about feminism. I put a post up about that very thing "Feminism-an excuse for men" in the off topic board trying to express the very thing you said, that it destroyed the roles. Not too many women were too happy about what I said. They all seemed to miss my point, but you understand.

Anyway, again, thank you for some positive feedback. You made my day!

gabrielle



sub4hire -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 2:31:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabrielle

Gloria,

Thank you so much for your input! It is nice to come across someone similar to myself. I agree, Daddy has me...what's there to talk about?

And about feminism. I put a post up about that very thing "Feminism-an excuse for men" in the off topic board trying to express the very thing you said, that it destroyed the roles. Not too many women were too happy about what I said. They all seemed to miss my point, but you understand.

Anyway, again, thank you for some positive feedback. You made my day!

gabrielle


Gabrielle,
I think they do not agree because we as a female race have come so far in recent years. Especially a FemDoms point of view. Why would they agree? They are the biggest feminists of all time.
The bottom line though is. I have the capacity to make much more money than my Dominant does. ITo me as long as we are treated equally in the workplace thats all that matters. At home. We want to be treated differently depending on the individual. Some like to be in control some don't. My Dom respects my opinion as much as anyone elses. In the past it was not true that all women were degraded. Women basically controlled the household. They really don't today. They have given up that authority. At least thats my take on it. You give up something to gain something down the road.
The question is how much do you give up before you lose yourself?
So many have lost themselves already.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble my mind is wandering. Too many questions at a given time. So I'll shut up for now.



perverseangelic -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 2:45:58 PM)

"Feminism destroyed the roles."

i replied on the other thread, and i have to reply on this one as it's something of an area of...passion...for me.

i guess i don't see feminism as destroying roles, so much as removing the necessity of a spesific gender inacting them.

i have NO PROBLEM with women who want to live the "1950's idealized housewife" lifestyle, heck, more power to 'em.

but i don't think that those roles should be -required- based on gender. it seems limiting to me to say that men MUST be strong and stoic and women MUST be comforting and domestic, or anything else that one would place on an individual just because of their gender.

my point is that i believe anyone should live any role they choose, but that those roles shouldn't be forced upon them simply because of their gender.

in regards to contracts- i've never had on on paper. my contracts always seem to come about through discussion and interaction. my Tops have learned what my limits are, and i have leared where theres are, and what we feel good doing together. we hvaen't ever really needed to write it down.
but, i've alwyas been emotionally invovled with my dominants. i think written contracts would be useful for people who are in trainer/trainee type realtionships



ZenMaster -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 3:31:10 PM)

I'm responding to the original post:

I have used a contract in the past on two occassions with the only two people I have ever collared since I've been doing this for well over a decade. Neither relationship worked despite a contract. I'm not blaming it on the contract but now that I'm entering into a new relationship, which includes collaring someone for the third time in my life (and I am doing my best to make it the last time), I am ambivalent about drawing one up.

I believe that life, as well as relationships (even M/s ones), flow, and I just may have to make a lot of changes to the contract, especially since the relationship is so new. So for now, I just as soon not have one and see what happens so I can make a better decision later as whether or not one is needed.

ZM



Gabrielle -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 3:46:37 PM)

Ms Sandi,
Well I think ive figured out why we cant come to terms on this given issue i think we have the same heart and motivaton's for our sub and we achieve them differently but the outcome is somewhat the same. I think where we stick is this you are not romantically involved with your subs and I am.

" I find it interesting that you insist that having a contract eliminates normal communication and growth. I am curious to know your definition of a contract and it's purpose. "

My definition of a contract and its purpose is defined in the messages previously posted. I personally find them restrictive. As far as the communication side maybe i was'nt clear or did'nt address it properly I dont believe with or without a contract communication is restricted at all. As far as growth i'm of the opion that if i see a oppurtunity arise that i may lead my sub further along the road to the goal ahead but it would require going outside of the contract what do you do then? Many lessons that have been taught or certain things shown to my sub have been grabbed during that vitual moment when it offers itself and if i was to pause to sit write out a contract amend the area discuss with the sub what we where doing the moment would be over and a oppurtunity lost. As far as the "collering" call it what you will present what symbol or ritual you will the moment the sub decides to give her self fully to you for training guidance ect. I guess for you its "the contract" same thing different symbol. As you have stated trust is a growing developing evolving thing and couldnt agree more. This applies not only for the sub but the dom as well. Here's a very good example of the way i view trust and communication. If i get a dog am i going to walk out the front door to take him for a walk with out a lease or am i going to put a lease on him till i can trust that he wont bolt from or keep walking in front of me of attack the next door neighbors dog. The Answer is no of course not. There has to be much time and effort and communication, Before he can do this you must trust him and him trust you. And anyone knows a unruly dog causes discord and unhappiness a well trained dog cause happiness and you can do more toghter because the bond is there. NOW before any one gets there feathers ruffled i dont consider by subs DOGS that couldnt be further from the truth just a analology. I have a question for you sandi and i think this might where we stick also what is your definition of D/s? I love good honest debate talk to you soon.

Gabriellesdaddy



sub4hire -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/5/2004 3:52:25 PM)

For what its worth the people who I know who have had contracts usually never re-newed them. They would be for 60 days or 6 months. The end of the contract they walk.

Easy way to have monogamy yet at the same time sort of say...well I really don't care. Contract up.

I think Gabrielle has hit a good point. Maybe these people do not have romantic relationships with their submissives?

I know for me..that is something I need in my relationship. I know for others it is not.

Something to ponder anyway.



UtahGoddess -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/6/2004 1:54:30 AM)

Gabriellesdaddy,

I said I am not romantically involved with MOST of those that serve me. I did not say I never get intimately involved. I do have romantic/intimate relationships with submissive men which include love, affection, sponteneity, laughter, conversation, washing dishes, scening, sex, hanging out, watching movies etc etc ....just like any other power exchange couple or combination of individuals.

"I have a question for you sandi and i think this might where we stick also what is your definition of D/s? "

If you are really interested in my thoughts on what D/s is....you can read "The Beginner's Guide to Bondage and Domination" which was written by my first husband and myself and uploaded to the web some 12 years ago. (http://www.castlerealm.com/library/original.shtml)
Though some things have changed over the years....such as my power dynamic .... I still agree with the fundamental definitions I penned over a decade ago.

If this was an attempt to draw me into a debate, I will disappoint you ...... as other people's rules and definitions have little bearing on how I conduct my relationships, nor do I attempt to convert the world.

I originally responded to this thread not to challenge your ideas, but to offer insight into how contracts can be a useful tool. However, upon review of the original post I now understand only those who were in agreement with the original post were invited to respond.

In relationships there is no right way, no "one" way ....... there is only your way. And whatever method works for those individuals is the right way for them.

I wish you well

Ms Sandi



GabriellesDaddy -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/6/2004 5:15:47 AM)

Ms, Sandi,


'only those who were in agreement with the original post were invited to respond."

Good Morning, Ma'am. The original post was not about agreement or disagreement. I was not looking for defense of the contracts and negotiations so many find so useful, as I did not attack them. I was merely looking for others in the lifestyle who do not use them. True, I have a hard time with contracts, but that is simply because of the type of relationship I share with Daddy. We are very deeply emotionally involved. (Just in case no one could tell by now [:)] )

You see, sometimes I experience internal struggles about what is going on between me and Daddy. Not to the point of rebelling, so to speak, but to the point where I need to search my soul and find what he has provided for me to overcome something. This is hard sometimes. Example: He has presented me with a challenge of sorts. There is something he would like for me "give" him as he refuses to TAKE anything. This new challenge is very difficult for me and I would love to be able to discuss it with another sub who WON"T say "OH my God, is it in your contract!"

That's all, Miss Sandi. I welcome all opinions and frown on none, but the purpose of the post was to hopefully find friends who lived the lifestyle such as I.

Gabrielle

so sorry! Daddy and I really need to sign each other out of this thing before posting!



UtahGoddess -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/6/2004 7:35:44 PM)

Dear Gabrielle :)

Isn't it amazing how spiritual and altering "whips and chains" can be? I know I didn't begin my journey thinking it would be anything more than "deviant" sex. <laffs> And yet, contrary to that perception, I have found my years in D/s and BDSM have inspired (and required) a great deal of introspection and "personal demon slaying". It seems the more I learn about others, the more I learn about me....and vice versa.

And the learning and growth never stops.

Isn't it wonderful?

Ms Sandi



Gabrielle -> RE: Old Fashioned D/s (4/7/2004 5:32:52 AM)

Ms. Sandi,

This is indeed a wonderful world I live in. I have found such peace and fullfillment in my role as Daddy's Baby Girl. He has shown me things about myself that I either never knew, or chose to hide from even myself. I was a wreck when we first got together. His first goal was to help me find myself. That he did and I became a confident, educated, and stable woman. Then, seeing the potential for submission-and that submission would bring me joy-he slowly introduced me to this lifestyle. And I haven't looked back since!

It has been four years now, and we have been married for three of those four. This is my third marriage and I honestly never knew marriage could be this happy. I just never found the right man before now.

Funny though, marriage seems almost miniscule compared to our D/s. I don't even wear my rings anymore. The collar is enough...speaking of which, I have noticed comments on the decline of the meaning of collars. For Daddy and I is very important and meaningful. It symbolizes his commitment to take full and absolute responsibilty of me and my commitment to give him full and absolute authority.

But I ramble. I will leave now on that note. And thank you Ms Sandi for you words to me. I have watched you and Daddy go at it so it was nice to hear a softer tone. [:)]

gabrielle



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