RE: Book Burning Party at Library

RE: Book Burning Party at Library (Full Version)

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SadistDave -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 11:09:22 AM)
I think that the city council manipulating the situation to create an emergency that did not exist in the first place IS actually quite a different story than the one the book burning lie was based on. Thank you for your typically ignorant response. -SD-

Musicmystery -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 11:14:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave I think that the city council manipulating the situation to create an emergency that did not exist in the first place IS actually quite a different story than the one the book burning lie was based on. Thank you for your typically ignorant response. -SD- Because of the City Council's actions, this was up for a vote. A no vote was to kill the library. Yes, that was manipulative, forcing people to look at what they wanted while allocating money elsewhere. That left, though, The Library vs. The Tax, and the ignorant Teas swept in to cry "OMG!!! TAXES!!!!" The campaign smartly shifted the debate back to the referendum on the library. The next story might well be voting out the manipulative city council members. But two separate issues. And I managed to make that point without having to resort to "you're ignorant."

SadistDave -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 11:24:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave I think that the city council manipulating the situation to create an emergency that did not exist in the first place IS actually quite a different story than the one the book burning lie was based on. Thank you for your typically ignorant response. -SD- Because of the City Council's actions, this was up for a vote. A no vote was to kill the library. Yes, that was manipulative, forcing people to look at what they wanted while allocating money elsewhere. That left, though, The Library vs. The Tax, and the ignorant Teas swept in to cry "OMG!!! TAXES!!!!" The campaign smartly shifted the debate back to the referendum on the library. The next story might well be voting out the manipulative city council members. But two separate issues. And I managed to make that point without having to resort to "you're ignorant." So, you have no problem with the fact that the city council lied about there even being a need for the tax in the first place? Do you also not have a problem with them lying about the millions of dollars available to fund the library? Do you not see the problem with the city council voting to close the library if they did not get a tax increase they did not even need to in order to get a vote which had failed twice already to pass? Do you not have a problem with the fact that the campaign was a intentionally designed to paint the opposition as the cause of the problem by the very people who really did cause the problem? -SD-

Musicmystery -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 11:31:04 AM)
Really, after already pointing out these are separate issues, what's the difficulty in distinguishing them for you? Why is your fur up? Why do you have to make up positions for me? Did you not recognize acknowledgement of the manipulation and the comment about voting them out of office as hardly an endorsement? Is it really that difficult for you to ascertain that in the short run, this meant whether the library would survive? Your last one is silly--it conflates three groups into two. Where's your evidence for that? Is it hard for you to believe the library has supporters, and that these supporters aren't part of the city council or it's minions? Is your tin foil on too tight?

SadistDave -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 11:42:59 AM)
Okay, so if we are in agreement that the city council manipulated the issue, then why is it really that difficult for you to realize that the library was never in any danger of being closed until the city council decided to make it an issue? That's the point. There was NEVER any danger that the library would close until the city council reallocated their funding into a slush fund. The money was there. They didn't need the tax hike. Ignorant means uninformed, not stupid. You're not stupid. Work it out... -SD-

Musicmystery -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 12:46:08 PM)
Sigh. Reality is SO tricky for some people. No vote = end of library. Supported by national Teas sweeping in. Yes vote = library stays, with small 0.7% tax increase. All your bitching and moaning Does. Not. Change. That. Really. beyond who-ya-gonna-blame. So instead, they ran a campaign to keep the library. See how that works? Your way = no library. Their way = library. They went with Library.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 12:58:48 PM)
As I read and understood this story, a no vote to the tax increase would have meant no library. My understanding is that regardless of what budgetary allocations the city had in mind, keeping the library without the special tax was not part of the city's budget. Assuming my understanding of the story is correct, I have only this to say. Society requires taxes. Anyone who wants to live in a world without taxes or with a very low tax base is more than welcome to move to places like the Middle East or parts of Africa, or heck, even Greece. The rest of you - get used to the idea of taxes - they pay for what we call "civilization".

Edwynn -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 1:03:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic wow wow wow BRILLIANT! great vid. i still would have voted against increasing taxes for the library. all this stuff used to generally come out of the general fund. as state and city budgets have become bloated and strained, they have continually put up more and more bond measures, or tax increases, for things that should come out of the general fund. people voting "yes" to "save" this or that just feeds into this cycle. cut to 30 years later, and we literally have billions and billions of more debt collectively (bonds), and all these costs are in reality, new taxes. the tea party did have it right on that count. i think it's absurd and silly to claim they don't like libraries. I think that it is silly and absurd to think that a government that is forced to close down not just libraries, but many thousands of schools across the nation (eight schools in my -one- county, alone) is more "bloated" than the corporations, banks especially, who award massive business failure with $5-$22 million in bonuses for driving the entire national economy into the tank. Whence all the closings. When do we start closing more CEO offices? That would be eminently more efficacious. The severe shortfall in government revenues is the result of fiscally inane tax cuts when not at all called for, in significant measure. But far more damaging, as it turns out, from utterly insane deregulation. Every financial regulatory agency played tag-along thereon. When you open up a barn-sized door to the US Treasury to the financial industry, as the deregulation of 1999 and 2000 did, we can only wonder at the seeming temperance of such party in waiting so long to dive in. As it turns out, it was not so much a matter of any sense of courteous temporary probity on their part as it was in taking that long to hire all the new lawyers and finance PhDs and further lobbying to take full advantage, so as to obtain the largest mining scoop possible to dig it all out. PS Mining scoops are as large as the typical foreclosed house. What coincidence ... Hire the local dump trucks to haul the municipal and personal credit destruction away, hire a convoy of supertankers to haul the cash away for the effort. That's the formula.

calamitysandra -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 2:20:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra But without the increase, the library would have been closed. I would rather have a library in my community, than to make my stand on tax issues about this. Sometimes the greater good comes first. Liberal! [img]http://www.spscriptorium.com/Season12/bodysnatchers.jpg[/img] And a socialist one to boot. [:D]

joether -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:23:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave So, you have no problem with the fact that the city council lied about there even being a need for the tax in the first place? Do you also not have a problem with them lying about the millions of dollars available to fund the library? Your second question actually answers your first question. If they had the money in the first place, why did they need to place the issue on a tax in the first place? How many of those members of the city council are good friends with the Tea Party? Maybe they dreamed it up, so that the Tea Party would have something to bitch about. Notice the Tea Party never offered up any useful solutions beyond 'No'? I wonder how many of them have used a library within the last year? Since google and bing searchs are simply the modern era of 'ask the librarian for help'.... quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave Do you not have a problem with the fact that the campaign was a intentionally designed to paint the opposition as the cause of the problem by the very people who really did cause the problem? Actually, the campaign was to get people upset over the punchline that the library was arguing: Closing Libraries is just like Burning Books. And they had fun with it, organizing bands to play, food to be served, the works! People in the community, the state, country and beyond chimed in with disgust and anger that the library was going to have a book burning party. They (the educated types) changed the message from the Tea Party's usual lameness (most uneducated types) on what is lost if things didnt change in the future. But at no time, did the video state the Tea Party was the villians to this, just that they were the most (and only) opposition to the issue. When information and facts are known, people can make informed decisions. The Tea Party is all about misinformation and character assassinations. The people in that town decided what was more important to them. And the Tea Party wasnt important to them.

Karmastic -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:26:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra But without the increase, the library would have been closed. I would rather have a library in my community, than to make my stand on tax issues about this. Sometimes the greater good comes first. i disagree. if they drummed up that much support, enough to actually significantly increase voter turnout on a single issue, i can only imagine how much support they could have garnered for other solutions. e.g., fundraisers, or lobbying city hall for more budget, or a million other things. how do i say this...increased taxes shouldn't be the catchall for when we, as a society, can't think of ways to fund things that we, as a society, wish to have.

Karmastic -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:29:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic wow wow wow BRILLIANT! great vid. i still would have voted against increasing taxes for the library. all this stuff used to generally come out of the general fund. as state and city budgets have become bloated and strained, they have continually put up more and more bond measures, or tax increases, for things that should come out of the general fund. people voting "yes" to "save" this or that just feeds into this cycle. cut to 30 years later, and we literally have billions and billions of more debt collectively (bonds), and all these costs are in reality, new taxes. the tea party did have it right on that count. i think it's absurd and silly to claim they don't like libraries. And you would have been in the minority. The tiny minority..... Since I do believe they said that vote was a landslide. yeppers, no argument there. perhaps, it's a testament to what the article alluded to - people are stupid sheep, and actually thought a "no" vote meant they were voting to prevent a book burning, literally.

Karmastic -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:37:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic wow wow wow BRILLIANT! great vid. i still would have voted against increasing taxes for the library. all this stuff used to generally come out of the general fund. as state and city budgets have become bloated and strained, they have continually put up more and more bond measures, or tax increases, for things that should come out of the general fund. people voting "yes" to "save" this or that just feeds into this cycle. cut to 30 years later, and we literally have billions and billions of more debt collectively (bonds), and all these costs are in reality, new taxes. the tea party did have it right on that count. i think it's absurd and silly to claim they don't like libraries. Then you're a little slow on the uptake. The Tea Party was actively opposing the 0.7% specifically for library funding in order to keep it. Where, exactly, do you suppose the funding for the "general fund" springs? As expenses rise, the spring just renews itself magically? State and city budgets have become "bloated and strained" because the maniac drive to cut federal spending and taxes for the past three decades while not funding mandates has put that burden on states and cities, who lose the advantage of economies of scale (the evil bureaucracies!) and have to recreate and administer themselves less effectively and less cost-efficient. Costs should not be cut blindly, but in terms of returns on the cost. My new house has several features that I could do more cheaply--but at a greater long term cost. Same with my car. Brings us back to whether education and the means to knowledge are a good investment. We know where you and the Teas stand. Thankfully, in the minority. But again--in reaction against, not a stand for. Where did i write anything that remotely pertains to how you responded? And you seem to have confused me arguing against taxes as me advocating for the Tea Party. Why are you fixated on the Tea Party? I do know it's hard for party shills like you to grasp this, but Jane, you ignorant slut, I'm independent, and have independent thoughts. And to the point...we as a society, choose to fund things (via the general fund) that are important to us. I'm not sure what label you partisan fools use for wanting to increase taxes as a solution for every new funding gap. Does that make you a republican, or a Democrat?

Karmastic -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:39:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ...Then the Book Burners came clean, revealed their real purpose and issue, and only THEN was support strong for the library. You assumed many or most people saw the later revelation.

Musicmystery -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:41:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ...Then the Book Burners came clean, revealed their real purpose and issue, and only THEN was support strong for the library. You assumed many or most people saw the later revelation. Yes, I figured people commenting would take the time to find out what they were commenting on. It would help them to not appear as total idiots. It is, after all, the topic of the discussion. And right in the OP.

Edwynn -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:44:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic the tea party did have it right on that count. i think it's absurd and silly to claim they don't like libraries. And you would have been in the minority. The tiny minority..... Since I do believe they said that vote was a landslide. yeppers, no argument there. perhaps, it's a testament to what the article alluded to - people are stupid sheep, and actually thought a "no" vote meant they were voting to prevent a book burning, literally. Just as the Reagan mantra of "getting the government off our backs" has now saddled the country (by way of siphoning of muchas tax dollars by the private sector) with being burdened for some years to come with corporate ineptitude and licentiousness. Close more libraries and schools; create more jobs. Is that how it works?

Musicmystery -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:44:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic wow wow wow BRILLIANT! great vid. i still would have voted against increasing taxes for the library. all this stuff used to generally come out of the general fund. as state and city budgets have become bloated and strained, they have continually put up more and more bond measures, or tax increases, for things that should come out of the general fund. people voting "yes" to "save" this or that just feeds into this cycle. cut to 30 years later, and we literally have billions and billions of more debt collectively (bonds), and all these costs are in reality, new taxes. the tea party did have it right on that count. i think it's absurd and silly to claim they don't like libraries. Then you're a little slow on the uptake. The Tea Party was actively opposing the 0.7% specifically for library funding in order to keep it. Where, exactly, do you suppose the funding for the "general fund" springs? As expenses rise, the spring just renews itself magically? State and city budgets have become "bloated and strained" because the maniac drive to cut federal spending and taxes for the past three decades while not funding mandates has put that burden on states and cities, who lose the advantage of economies of scale (the evil bureaucracies!) and have to recreate and administer themselves less effectively and less cost-efficient. Costs should not be cut blindly, but in terms of returns on the cost. My new house has several features that I could do more cheaply--but at a greater long term cost. Same with my car. Brings us back to whether education and the means to knowledge are a good investment. We know where you and the Teas stand. Thankfully, in the minority. But again--in reaction against, not a stand for. Where did i write anything that remotely pertains to how you responded? <snip>various gratuitous insults in place of any argument</snip> The quoted part, Skippy. Slow down and read before you type your response.

Karmastic -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:49:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic wow wow wow BRILLIANT! great vid. i still would have voted against increasing taxes for the library. all this stuff used to generally come out of the general fund. as state and city budgets have become bloated and strained, they have continually put up more and more bond measures, or tax increases, for things that should come out of the general fund. people voting "yes" to "save" this or that just feeds into this cycle. cut to 30 years later, and we literally have billions and billions of more debt collectively (bonds), and all these costs are in reality, new taxes. the tea party did have it right on that count. i think it's absurd and silly to claim they don't like libraries. I think that it is silly and absurd to think that a government that is forced to close down not just libraries, but many thousands of schools across the nation (eight schools in my -one- county, alone) is more "bloated" than the corporations, banks especially, who award massive business failure with $5-$22 million in bonuses for driving the entire national economy into the tank. Whence all the closings. When do we start closing more CEO offices? That would be eminently more efficacious. The severe shortfall in government revenues is the result of fiscally inane tax cuts when not at all called for, in significant measure. But far more damaging, as it turns out, from utterly insane deregulation. Every financial regulatory agency played tag-along thereon. When you open up a barn-sized door to the US Treasury to the financial industry, as the deregulation of 1999 and 2000 did, we can only wonder at the seeming temperance of such party in waiting so long to dive in. As it turns out, it was not so much a matter of any sense of courteous temporary probity on their part as it was in taking that long to hire all the new lawyers and finance PhDs and further lobbying to take full advantage, so as to obtain the largest mining scoop possible to dig it all out. PS Mining scoops are as large as the typical foreclosed house. What coincidence ... Hire the local dump trucks to haul the municipal and personal credit destruction away, hire a convoy of supertankers to haul the cash away for the effort. That's the formula. i appreciate your analysis, it is interesting, and i agree with a lot of it. but you're essentially giving your opinion of why budgets are bloated and in debt, and commiserating that corporations and/or their fat cats who helped cause the problems aren't also suffering. you're kinda preaching to the choire, where did i say anything that disagrees with this? i stated a simple freakin truism, that as a society, we fund things that we, as a society, think are important. don't go running to taxes as the default solution to budget shortfalls.

Karmastic -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:52:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ...Then the Book Burners came clean, revealed their real purpose and issue, and only THEN was support strong for the library. You assumed many or most people saw the later revelation. Yes, I figured people commenting would take the time to find out what they were commenting on. It would help them to not appear as total idiots. It is, after all, the topic of the discussion. And right in the OP. Jane, you ignorant slut, people , as in the voter's you referred to, not us. LMFAO!

joether -> RE: Book Burning Party at Library (6/20/2012 3:52:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic yeppers, no argument there. perhaps, it's a testament to what the article alluded to - people are stupid sheep, and actually thought a "no" vote meant they were voting to prevent a book burning, literally. To believe that would have been 'George W. Bush' stupid. No, the people knew exactly what the vote was about and decided the charge was worth the merit. I am going to take the educated guess that when the library explained its true intentions, most people got a laugh and a sigh of relief; but understood what was at stack.

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