RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 6:07:05 AM)

<----------- no kids.

My last job put me on salary within months of my hire due to all the overtime I was working.

Soon, I was a manager, but never came close to what the male managers earned. My minions didn't quit or need to be fired, either.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 6:21:57 AM)

I Have access to the books. And I watch my partners like a hawk because I don't trust the motherfuckers.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, your organization posts total compensation for everyone so that you KNOW you're being paid fairly?




Owner59 -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 7:22:48 AM)

Forgive me but I`ve always thought of Wisconsin as a moderate state.

Was I wrong or is this kind of stuff new up there?



mnottertail -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 7:29:58 AM)

No, cheeseheads have been at it off and on for a long time over there, perhaps you have heard of Tailgunner Joe McCarthy?



erieangel -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 7:33:54 AM)

Five years ago I met some people from WI who told me it used to be one of the most progressive states--unions started up there, they had some of the best anti-poverty/welfare laws in the country. Even five years ago, that was changing.

We are being led down a path that will repeat the mistakes of the Gilded Age and there is little any of us can do about it.



SoftBonds -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 9:02:16 AM)

For the wives of Wisconsin Republicans:
"If you don't come down to the voting booth with me and vote against Walker, I will stop cooking, doing dishes, and doing laundry. After all, I do not get paid for this extra work, and since I can't get equal pay in the workforce, I will get equal work from you in the home."
Sign it, make your hubby sign it, and there you go.



farglebargle -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 10:23:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I Have access to the books. And I watch my partners like a hawk because I don't trust the motherfuckers.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, your organization posts total compensation for everyone so that you KNOW you're being paid fairly?




So you're a partner and not an employee? Isn't that a bit of comparing apples to manhole covers? Everything you do is controlled by the contracts y'all ( 2nd person plural ) negotiated. If you cut a bad deal, it's your own fault.

The context here is for regular employment.



SoftBonds -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 10:34:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I Have access to the books. And I watch my partners like a hawk because I don't trust the motherfuckers.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, your organization posts total compensation for everyone so that you KNOW you're being paid fairly?




So you're a partner and not an employee? Isn't that a bit of comparing apples to manhole covers? Everything you do is controlled by the contracts y'all ( 2nd person plural ) negotiated. If you cut a bad deal, it's your own fault.

The context here is for regular employment.


Remember that walmart lady that got lower raises than her male co-workers for 18 years. When she found out about it and sued, the company said "sorry, you didn't complain in a timely manner." Supreme court backed them over her.
One .5% difference in raises isn't a big deal, 18 and you start talking real money (enough that the company went to the supreme court instead of settling).



Iamsemisweet -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 11:42:07 AM)

I am an employee of an LLC, as the other members.  I misspoke when I used the term "partner"..  And if you don't think women in my situation get ripped off and sometimes need redress, you are dreaming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I Have access to the books. And I watch my partners like a hawk because I don't trust the motherfuckers.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, your organization posts total compensation for everyone so that you KNOW you're being paid fairly?




So you're a partner and not an employee? Isn't that a bit of comparing apples to manhole covers? Everything you do is controlled by the contracts y'all ( 2nd person plural ) negotiated. If you cut a bad deal, it's your own fault.

The context here is for regular employment.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 7:30:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

So they should make less money because they're forced to have babies they didn't ask for and don't want?

Con "logic" at it's finest.


Nope...they should earn less income because:

a) They consistently don't ask for raises and....

b) They (as a group) tend to leave the workforce, disallowing them to garner workforce education that comes from STAYING ("experience") in the workforce.

Personally, I LOVE the fact that women are willing to do that stuff (I wouldn't).....it allows me to focus on creating shitloads of money (which, generally, women are somewhat in favor of, allowing them to do other things....many of them beneficially allowing me to make shitloads of money but....) if you think that an employer, given the option of a man (who's more likely to stay) or a woman (who's statistically not)....as an employer....I'd choose a man.

NOW....as an employer...if I had a job where a woman (not as physically strong) could handle the task as well as a man (more likely to take afternoon two hour lunches)....I'd choose a woman every time....indeed....my staff is 80% women.

Why? Because they work 30% harder than a man (and by the way....MY female staff gets paid BETTER than the men in my employ BECAUSE they work harder), but if a man would work that conscientiously....he'd get paid another 15% more BUT.....they (men) don't.

Why would he get paid 15% more?

Because he can't get pregnant, he won't (typically) leave to have a child and because he has to work.

A woman (in many cases) knows she doesn't have to stay forever.

And statistics don't lie.....women tend to leave to have babies.....35% of them never return. And when they do, it's several years later.

MEN can't have babies....and (statistically) 99% of them return after about 4 - 10 days.

Give it up ladies...it's just the way it is.

Like it or not....that's the way it works.

And by the way....as much of an asshole as you now think I am....there are positions (usually managerial ones that pay more typically) that if given a choice....even if the woman is 80% as qualified as a man.....I'll hire the woman because she'll work 3 times harder to prove herself.

So....you want sexist employers? I'm not the only one....there are SHITLOADS of men that have lost jobs at my firm (and the women get paid better than the man ever would) because I've seen it and done it long enough (37 years) to know that even when, side by side, even when the man is equally qualified....the woman will do a better job. And I'll hire her.

THAT's sexist....but you know what else it is?

Good business.



servantforuse -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/9/2012 8:01:06 PM)

Eirieangel, Having the best welfare laws in the country is something the voters in Wisconsin decided we could no longer afford. That is why we elected Scott Walker governor. It is also the reason that he will win his recall election.



farglebargle -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/10/2012 5:46:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I am an employee of an LLC, as the other members.  I misspoke when I used the term "partner"..  And if you don't think women in my situation get ripped off and sometimes need redress, you are dreaming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I Have access to the books. And I watch my partners like a hawk because I don't trust the motherfuckers.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, your organization posts total compensation for everyone so that you KNOW you're being paid fairly?




So you're a partner and not an employee? Isn't that a bit of comparing apples to manhole covers? Everything you do is controlled by the contracts y'all ( 2nd person plural ) negotiated. If you cut a bad deal, it's your own fault.

The context here is for regular employment.



Yes. Your use of the word partner in the context of a LLC was confusing. As an employee your access to the books isn't an uncommon situation, but you'd probably have to explain real hard why you would use any of the confidential and privileged information you have in your own salary negotiations.

Which, of course, is a resource few employees have in the first place.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/10/2012 7:24:05 AM)

Why wouldn't I have access to the books? It's a small company, always nice to know if there is enough money to make payroll, so no explanation needed. If we don't, the members/partners have to dig into their own pockets, at least to pay the staff.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I am an employee of an LLC, as the other members.  I misspoke when I used the term "partner"..  And if you don't think women in my situation get ripped off and sometimes need redress, you are dreaming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I Have access to the books. And I watch my partners like a hawk because I don't trust the motherfuckers.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, your organization posts total compensation for everyone so that you KNOW you're being paid fairly?




So you're a partner and not an employee? Isn't that a bit of comparing apples to manhole covers? Everything you do is controlled by the contracts y'all ( 2nd person plural ) negotiated. If you cut a bad deal, it's your own fault.

The context here is for regular employment.



Yes. Your use of the word partner in the context of a LLC was confusing. As an employee your access to the books isn't an uncommon situation, but you'd probably have to explain real hard why you would use any of the confidential and privileged information you have in your own salary negotiations.

Which, of course, is a resource few employees have in the first place.




farglebargle -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/10/2012 12:45:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Why wouldn't I have access to the books? It's a small company, always nice to know if there is enough money to make payroll, so no explanation needed. If we don't, the members/partners have to dig into their own pockets, at least to pay the staff.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I am an employee of an LLC, as the other members.  I misspoke when I used the term "partner"..  And if you don't think women in my situation get ripped off and sometimes need redress, you are dreaming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I Have access to the books. And I watch my partners like a hawk because I don't trust the motherfuckers.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, your organization posts total compensation for everyone so that you KNOW you're being paid fairly?




So you're a partner and not an employee? Isn't that a bit of comparing apples to manhole covers? Everything you do is controlled by the contracts y'all ( 2nd person plural ) negotiated. If you cut a bad deal, it's your own fault.

The context here is for regular employment.



Yes. Your use of the word partner in the context of a LLC was confusing. As an employee your access to the books isn't an uncommon situation, but you'd probably have to explain real hard why you would use any of the confidential and privileged information you have in your own salary negotiations.

Which, of course, is a resource few employees have in the first place.




Separation of roles and basic security baselines say that the fewest people who need access is the best. Generally, all HR records are private and confidential, and unless you're processing payroll, it's not commonly known information.



kalikshama -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/11/2012 6:09:21 AM)

Stephen Colbert RIPS WI state sen. Glenn Grothman (R) for his anti-woman comments

[image]http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z152/UCLABruinKid/LadyHeroes.jpg[/image]

...Now, no surprise, folks, Lady Heroes are all men, because conservative men feel comfortable speaking for women. They understand it's not a uteryou, it's a uterus. (audience applauds) They love it here.

Lady Nation, tonight's Lady Hero hails from Wisconsin, where embattled Governor Scott Walker has just repealed the state's Equal Pay Enforcement Act, which allows legal recourse for women who've been paid less for equal work. Hot tip: if you are going to sue your employer for unequal pay, hire a lady lawyer; it's much cheaper.

But, Walker is not tonight's Lady Hero. No, that honor goes to the man who led the repeal of the Equal Pay Act, Wisconsin state senator Glenn Grothman, who knows that wage discrimination is just a myth, saying:

GLENN GROTHMAN (4/7/2012): Take a hypothetical husband and wife who are both lawyers... the woman takes time off, raises kids, is not go go go. ... The husband is making 200 grand a year, the woman is making 40 grand a year. It wasn't discrimination. There was a different sense of urgency in each person. ... You could argue that money is more important for men.

(audience grumbling in disgust)

Exactly! Women don't care about money. I'm not even sure they cash their paychecks. Besides, good luck even finding them in those handbags. Am I right, fellas? You see, Grothman understands that money's a guy thing, like football, or buffalo wings, or deciding what is fair compensation for women. Besides, us dudes need the cash to impress the ladies. They have way less money for some reason.

So bravo to this month's Lady Hero Glenn Grothman. I can't wait to learn who'll get this honor, next time of the month.

Watch video: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/412126/april-10-2012/stephen-colbert-s-lady-heroes---glen-grothman

Full transcript: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/11/1082383/-Stephen-Colbert-RIPS-WI-state-sen-Glenn-Grothman-R-for-his-anti-woman-comments



Iamsemisweet -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/11/2012 7:51:41 AM)

I am really not getting your point as it relates to this discussion, fargle. I am in a small company, so yes, I know what people make. Are you saying I shouldn't be concerned about pay discriimination? The only reason I am treated fairly is because I zealously defend my rights.



papassion -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/11/2012 10:31:21 AM)

If two people do the SAME job, with the same education, level of responsibility, with the same level of stability (stay on the job without taking time off for maternity. And don't turn into screaming demons a few days a month, where you can't trust them around a dangerous process) then they should get the same money.

semisweet, you went to law school. Do you have any illusions that all Lawyers (male and female) should all make the same money? Do you think all Lawyers in the Justice Department make the same money? Or in any company?

I would bet that with your law degree, working in a nice, clean air conditioned office, feel you should make 10 times as much as a ditchdigger in the same company, who works in the heat, and cold weather, exposed to on the job dangers, expending a lot more calories (a unit of energy that mathmatically proves he does more "work" than you) Or is your view changed now that you're making the more money?



Edwynn -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/11/2012 12:51:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
If two people do the SAME job, with the same education, level of responsibility, with the same level of stability (stay on the job without taking time off for maternity. And don't turn into screaming demons a few days a month, where you can't trust them around a dangerous process) then they should get the same money.



Well that settles that.

Being that there are more than a few male bosses who do not turn into screaming demons for a mere few days a month, but rather are that way start to finish, five days a week (though likely at home too), every week, where you can't trust them around any process involving tact or rational decision making, they should get more money, because they are more consistent and predictable in such behavior.





Iamsemisweet -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/11/2012 1:48:36 PM)

LOL.  Hilarious.  The most moody, most unstable, most demonic people I have ever been exposed to are male attorneys I have worked with.  I had a partner who is undoubtedly the highest functioning psychopath in the world.  If that is your criteria for determining pay grade, I should have made five times more than those crazy bastards.

Until my current position, since becoming an attorney my pay has been based on merit, not sex, papassion.  It is very simple: the more income you generate, the more you earn.  That is how it should be.  The colleagues I have now believe we should all be paid equally.  Since I bring in more income than them, I strongly disagree. I also think they would rip me off and pay themselves more, if I didn't watch them like a hawk.  They have this weird sense of entitlement, probably because they both have dicks.   Hence, I will be leaving them in the dust in a month or two.  So no, I absolutely don't believe lawyers in the JD, or any firm, should make the same amount of money. 

My firm doesn't employ ditch diggers papassion, but, if we did, you are correct.  I believe I should make 10 times more than them.  Possibly 20 times more.  Quite simply, my work (however you define that) has more value.  What does that have to do with anything?  No one is saying everyone in a company should earn the same.  But, equal pay for equal work should be the way of things.  I can't understand how anyone can have a different viewpoint.
quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

If two people do the SAME job, with the same education, level of responsibility, with the same level of stability (stay on the job without taking time off for maternity. And don't turn into screaming demons a few days a month, where you can't trust them around a dangerous process) then they should get the same money.

semisweet, you went to law school. Do you have any illusions that all Lawyers (male and female) should all make the same money? Do you think all Lawyers in the Justice Department make the same money? Or in any company?

I would bet that with your law degree, working in a nice, clean air conditioned office, feel you should make 10 times as much as a ditchdigger in the same company, who works in the heat, and cold weather, exposed to on the job dangers, expending a lot more calories (a unit of energy that mathmatically proves he does more "work" than you) Or is your view changed now that you're making the more money?



farglebargle -> RE: In Wisconsin, men are apparently entitled to earn more money (4/11/2012 2:40:45 PM)

quote:

I can't understand how anyone can have a different viewpoint.


Not having access to the books prevents anyone from actually knowing where they stand.

Perhaps we need a 'payroll disclosure act', where companies need to post ( internally ) all their payroll data. What roles get paid what range of salary, and what factors determine any variation?

I'm glad that you have 'perfect market knowledge'. The question is, "How do we extend that everywhere?"



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