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How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 3/29/2012 6:59:04 AM   
kalikshama


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We probably won't know until June what the Supreme Court justices will decide regarding the health overhaul law known as Obamacare. The questions this week from the conservative majority seemed skeptical of the "individual mandate" at the center of the law, yet dubious of the law's survival without it.

(A line of questioning may not be a perfect guide to a justice's thinking, but right now it appears to be the way to bet.)

So let's say it's June and the high court has laid low the whole law. That's terrible news for President Obama and the Democrats, right?

Well, yes and no. Yes, because it's obviously a bummer to have a law that has your name stuck to it struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. It may be particularly stinging if you once made your living as a constitutional law professor and consider this law your signature achievement. And if you happen to be running for re-election.

So the immediate reaction to the total trashing of the law is likely to be gleeful for the right and brutal for the administration. Imagine, too, the pain of Democrats who voted for the law in 2009 and 2010 and are now former members of Congress, at least partly as a consequence.

But in the longer run, there are ways in which the striking down of the law could help the president and his party. First, it would eliminate an issue that Republicans have rallied around since early 2009, a fundamental element of the Tea Party movement and a focal point for GOP candidates in 2012. Even Mitt Romney, father of a similar law in Massachusetts, has denounced Obamacare and insisted on its repeal.

Second, and conversely, a major hit from the high court could create a bounce-back issue for outraged Democrats in 2012 and beyond. The Democrats have done well in recent decades when they could run on popular disaffection regarding health care, particularly in 1992 and 2008. A chance to rally against the tyranny of the court, striking down popular provisions as well as unpopular, could be potent. Consider how much ground the GOP gained running against the liberal court of Chief Justice Earl Warren a generation ago, or against the Roe v. Wade abortion decision since 1973.

It is increasingly easy to convince average Americans that the court itself is politicized, when all five Republican appointees regularly vote against all four Democratic appointees in high-visibility cases.

Third, and most significantly, striking down this law will narrow the scope of debate about health care and its costs in the future. It means we are going back to debating the status quo versus a national health care system.

The courtroom conversation this week strongly suggested that if the government wants to do something about the uninsured, it ought to have a benefit program and pay for it with taxes. None of the justices came out and said as much, but they made it clear such an arrangement would be as constitutional as Social Security or Medicare.

This guarantees that when the health care debate returns, the idea of universal coverage through a hybrid private insurance system co-existing with government programs will be dead. We should note here that the idea of such a hybrid was originally a Republican idea, going back more than a decade. It was regarded as the best way to forestall "socialized medicine," or a "single payer" scheme run by Washington. And it had promise: Romney's own version in Massachusetts has been successful and relatively popular, even with its insurance requirement.

But the Supreme Court seems about to outlaw such a compromise at the federal level. And if so, it means the next big round of policy debate will be about a national health care plan (think Canada or Europe) replacing a world where insurance costs and the number of uninsured are rising apace. In Texas, it's already one person in four. That will mean more uninsured patients winding up with unpaid bills borne by hospitals and other providers, who load the costs back onto the rest of us — just like now.

No Congress in the near future is likely to adopt a single payer plan. So what seems likeliest is a gradual process by which the age of Medicare eligibility moves down, the age of SCHIP coverage eligibility for children rises, and access to Medicaid is widened to include more income groups. Some call it "Medicare for All," and it is one way to bring "single payer" health care to America.

That is why, in the long run, what we have seen in the past three years will not be remembered so much as a battle between liberals and conservatives as a battle between two kinds of conservatives: the pragmatic versus the pure. Obamacare may have become anathema to all Republicans, but the ideas at its heart were meant to be a moderate, practical answer to the pressure for more government involvement. The pure conservatives in Congress preferred full resistance to any further encroachment, and that view appeared to hold sway with the high court, as well.

The public-private hybrid was a compromise the Obama people proved willing to accept in 2009, when many Democrats preferred single payer or at least a "public option" that made a government plan available to those unable to obtain or afford private insurance. It was part of the White House strategy to lure GOP senators such as Charles Grassley to support the bill. It failed, and the Democrats had to pass the bill themselves and become the party of the "individual mandate."

And by the way, did anyone ever try to defend a less lovely phrase in a political arena? In our national culture, we identify with the individual and against the outside power that mandates something. To be sure, the phrase was a leftover from earlier policy debates. But it should have been deep-sixed early in 2009 if the White House hoped to make its approach popular and attractive. Why not call it "universal participation" or "individual responsibility"? Why not make it something to be proud of rather than a whiff of Big Brother?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/03/29/149585096/how-a-collapse-of-the-health-care-law-could-help-democrats-down-the-road


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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 3/29/2012 7:49:11 AM   
DarkSteven


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Yeah, I don't understand the idea that this is make-or-break. Heck, Roe vs Wade came pout decades ago, and conservatives have been chipping away at it ever since - why would health care be any different?

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 3/29/2012 7:57:38 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
And by the way, did anyone ever try to defend a less lovely phrase in a political arena? In our national culture, we identify with the individual and against the outside power that mandates something. To be sure, the phrase was a leftover from earlier policy debates. But it should have been deep-sixed early in 2009 if the White House hoped to make its approach popular and attractive. Why not call it "universal participation" or "individual responsibility"? Why not make it something to be proud of rather than a whiff of Big Brother?


Because then, you are only playing games and they will be roasted for it. Obama railed against the individual mandate in 2008 to separate himself from Hilary. He used those terms. This is, however, a very basic ploy by politicians. Who would seriously be against the "Patriot Act?" I mean, are you not a patriot? The only people seriously against the Patriot Act are those who are on the side of Freedom and Liberty. While the D's railed against it, it wasn't really over the Freedom and Liberty infringements. It was because it was a Republican/Bush bill. The "Affordable Care Act" hasn't made anything more affordable. Health Care costs have risen and will continue to rise.

Names will change simply to change perceptions, without anything actually changing. The only people it will effect are those who aren't looking into things for specifics and meaning. Unfortunately, in the US, that's the majority.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 3/29/2012 7:42:24 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

The "Affordable Care Act" hasn't made anything more affordable. Health Care costs have risen and will continue to rise.


The "Act" hasn't been fully implemented yet. We won't see the final cost (savings or increases) until it is implemented.

And BTW, when people are asked about the ACA, many are against it, but a majority of people support most of its provisions. It is only the mandate that is really seen unfavorably.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 3/29/2012 7:55:02 PM   
playfulotter


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Well, I received a rate hike of 26.4% from Anthem Blue Cross at the beginning of this month..then I read online they were going to adjust it as the people in Sacramento thought it was not a good thing (of course Blue Cross never let us know this) and today I received a new rate hike in the mail of 19.3%...Whew...this happened last year too...what can we do? I rarely go to the doctor too..but I have read this doesn't matter...I hate to say it but I am paying for all those people who have no money and never pay when they go to the emergency rooms and such...

I just wonder if and when this whole Obama Healthcare act is implemented will my cost go down or up?

< Message edited by playfulotter -- 3/29/2012 8:22:41 PM >


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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 3/29/2012 8:51:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

will my cost go down or up?

Depends on where you live (by state).

I'd say down, giving the extreme rate hike now.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/5/2012 2:49:57 PM   
crazyLarry


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............

< Message edited by crazyLarry -- 4/5/2012 2:59:31 PM >

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/5/2012 3:36:34 PM   
Paladin9


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The extreme rate hikes are due to Obombacare. Obombacare pretty much requires insurers to carry everyone regardless of health condition and cover it.

That's why HI is expensive in CA vs Miss. In Miss you can  be canceled, refused coverage for certain ailments for short or long periods of time, etc. No so in CA so we pay for that.

The thing to remember is ANYTHING run by the govt is inefficient and costly and no one in govt is responsible for any screwups. See medicare and SS.

Socialized medicine is in most other developed countries to the bane of it's citizens. Take to a Canadian citizen about their wait times to see a dr, then months to see a specialist. By the time they get to the specialist many times it's too late to help.
My sister in law lives in Austria, She was over 5 years going to Drs and wore a patch in the back of her head before a young Dr found out she had a tick. See recently went in for having trouble breathing, over  2 weeks to find out she need a shunt in a heart vessel. The surgery kept getting postponed as she kept getting infections, even her daughter got a virus visiting her, (maybe they need to quit recycling the air) finally after 5 months they did the operation, she was physically shot due to being in the hosp for so long, They said the surgery was successful, she died 3 weeks later. Gotta love socialized medicine.
 

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/5/2012 3:38:10 PM   
Arturas


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I enjoyed your post. I do like an optimistic person.

The essence of optimism is that it takes no account of the present, but it is a source of inspiration, of vitality and hope where others have resigned; it enables a man to hold his head high, to claim the future for himself and not to abandon it to his enemy.


Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/5/2012 3:46:09 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9

The extreme rate hikes are due to Obombacare. Obombacare pretty much requires insurers to carry everyone regardless of health condition and cover it.

So, what was the cause of their rising extraordinarily before ACA and before its implementation?

quote:


That's why HI is expensive in CA vs Miss. In Miss you can  be canceled, refused coverage for certain ailments for short or long periods of time, etc. No so in CA so we pay for that.

That sort of needs some work, I tell ya.

quote:


The thing to remember is ANYTHING run by the govt is inefficient and costly and no one in govt is responsible for any screwups. See medicare and SS.


They are pretty effiicient at bombing the shit out of places, and getting taxes.........so, again, more work is needed.

Medicare and Social Security don't look too bad....

quote:


Socialized medicine is in most other developed countries to the bane of it's citizens. Take to a Canadian citizen about their wait times to see a dr, then months to see a specialist. By the time they get to the specialist many times it's too late to help.
My sister in law lives in Austria, She was over 5 years going to Drs and wore a patch in the back of her head before a young Dr found out she had a tick. See recently went in for having trouble breathing, over  2 weeks to find out she need a shunt in a heart vessel. The surgery kept getting postponed as she kept getting infections, even her daughter got a virus visiting her, (maybe they need to quit recycling the air) finally after 5 months they did the operation, she was physically shot due to being in the hosp for so long, They said the surgery was successful, she died 3 weeks later. Gotta love socialized medicine.


Yes, execpt when you talk to the rest of the world, it isnt as you describe and they are all pretty happy with it.  And your joetheplumber style anecdote about somebody told somebodies cats mothers uncles owners boyfriend this story so it is true and a synechdoche for healthcare, I gotta tell ya, tht recipe has failed since its concoction.

But thanks for the heads up, we will seek elsewhere for reasoned input into the discussion.




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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/5/2012 3:49:40 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9

The extreme rate hikes are due to Obombacare. Obombacare pretty much requires insurers to carry everyone regardless of health condition and cover it.

That's why HI is expensive in CA vs Miss. In Miss you can  be canceled, refused coverage for certain ailments for short or long periods of time, etc. No so in CA so we pay for that.

The thing to remember is ANYTHING run by the govt is inefficient and costly and no one in govt is responsible for any screwups. See medicare and SS.

Socialized medicine is in most other developed countries to the bane of it's citizens. Take to a Canadian citizen about their wait times to see a dr, then months to see a specialist. By the time they get to the specialist many times it's too late to help.
My sister in law lives in Austria, She was over 5 years going to Drs and wore a patch in the back of her head before a young Dr found out she had a tick. See recently went in for having trouble breathing, over  2 weeks to find out she need a shunt in a heart vessel. The surgery kept getting postponed as she kept getting infections, even her daughter got a virus visiting her, (maybe they need to quit recycling the air) finally after 5 months they did the operation, she was physically shot due to being in the hosp for so long, They said the surgery was successful, she died 3 weeks later. Gotta love socialized medicine.
 


This is true. Those who don't wish to die waiting on their turn in Canada go the U.S. or other foreign countries and pay cash for the needed care, be it an operation or what. We all who follow what is going on and all it's attributes know this and very much hate a system which mandates payments for what will become socialized medicine and we clearly know many Doctors in the U.S. are seriously planning to retire early leaving even less doctors for the multitude who will be trying to find a doctor who will treat them for less than it costs to treat them, under Obamacare.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/5/2012 3:50:57 PM   
mnottertail


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credible citations please? Ja, didn't think so.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/5/2012 4:18:55 PM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9

The extreme rate hikes are due to Obombacare. Obombacare pretty much requires insurers to carry everyone regardless of health condition and cover it.

That's why HI is expensive in CA vs Miss. In Miss you can  be canceled, refused coverage for certain ailments for short or long periods of time, etc. No so in CA so we pay for that.

The thing to remember is ANYTHING run by the govt is inefficient and costly and no one in govt is responsible for any screwups. See medicare and SS.

Socialized medicine is in most other developed countries to the bane of it's citizens. Take to a Canadian citizen about their wait times to see a dr, then months to see a specialist. By the time they get to the specialist many times it's too late to help.
My sister in law lives in Austria, She was over 5 years going to Drs and wore a patch in the back of her head before a young Dr found out she had a tick. See recently went in for having trouble breathing, over  2 weeks to find out she need a shunt in a heart vessel. The surgery kept getting postponed as she kept getting infections, even her daughter got a virus visiting her, (maybe they need to quit recycling the air) finally after 5 months they did the operation, she was physically shot due to being in the hosp for so long, They said the surgery was successful, she died 3 weeks later. Gotta love socialized medicine.
 


LOL, Paladin, you realize that Austria is the only European nation with private health insurance, right? So your example damns our system, not Canada's.
Also, Medicare Administrative cost rate, 2%. Aetna administrative cost rate, 20%. Who is less efficient?

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/6/2012 1:08:36 AM   
truckinslave


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Are you familiar with the phrase "whistling past the graveyard"?

Any overturn of Obamaocare will be such a blow to him that I fear he would do a Johnson.

quote:

It means we are going back to debating the status quo versus a national health care system.


If you think the American people have the appetite for this debate right now you are dead wrong.
"Give me four more years to do it again" Really?
If you think Americans are going to vote for Obamao to let him institute single payer you are stupidly dead wrong.

5 votes are all it takes effectively to remove Obamao from office. 5.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 4/6/2012 1:27:46 AM >


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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/6/2012 1:11:09 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

I just wonder if and when this whole Obama Healthcare act is implemented will my cost go down or up?


What would history suggest to you?
My take is that government involvement always means massive cost increases.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/6/2012 1:13:49 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

So, what was the cause of their rising extraordinarily before ACA and before its implementation?


1. Technolgy
2. Lawsuits

Pretty simple stuff, actually.

quote:

And your joetheplumber style anecdote about somebody told somebodies cats mothers uncles owners boyfriend this story so it is true and a synechdoche for healthcare, I gotta tell ya, tht recipe has failed since its concoction.


I certainly hope people treat the deaths of your loved ones with more respect.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 4/6/2012 1:15:49 AM >


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/6/2012 2:43:09 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9
The extreme rate hikes are due to Obombacare. Obombacare pretty much requires insurers to carry everyone regardless of health condition and cover it.


Prove it. I'm assuming you read the whole Affordable Care Act? All 2409 pages?

There's alot covered in those 2409 pages, and I'm sure your a 'responsible American' whom did his/her 'duty' to both read and understand the document, right? Cus only a moron would let others feed him/her information second or third hand. In fact, not reading it, but then blasting against it shows just how lazy you really are....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9
That's why HI is expensive in CA vs Miss. In Miss you can  be canceled, refused coverage for certain ailments for short or long periods of time, etc. No so in CA so we pay for that.


And right here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 98.6% of US Citizens whom are citizens of the commonwealth, have access to good quality health care that is not expensive. The difference between MA and the other 49 states is....the citizens MAKE THE LAWS. The other 49 states are pretty much controlled by special interest and lobbying groups. Your rates are going up, because you have thrown in the metaphorical towel and allowed the insurance companies to just walk all over you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9
The thing to remember is ANYTHING run by the govt is inefficient and costly and no one in govt is responsible for any screwups. See medicare and SS.


So the five branchs of our military are "...inefficient and costly..."? The FBI, CIA, NSA, and the US Marshals are "...inefficient and costly..."? Generally, conservatives blame Democrats, liberals blame Republicans and independants blame both Democrats and Republicans for screw ups. In theory, we change this by voting people out of office in favor of people we believe will be responsible with the role.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9
Socialized medicine is in most other developed countries to the bane of it's citizens. Take to a Canadian citizen about their wait times to see a dr, then months to see a specialist. By the time they get to the specialist many times it's too late to help.


Do you even know what that word means, 'socialized', without looking it up? All those countries have very different view points than here in America. They look at firearm ownership with distaste, while here in America, one has easier access to them than mental health services! Here in America, with private health insurance companies, a patient has to see their primary care doctor (which can take two or more weeks to see) before gaining access to a specialist a few more weeks later. With Mass Health (that's Romneycare to you), I saw a specialist for a ear problem the day after saw my physician. The medication cost me $3, while someone without insurance would have paid $28.50.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin9
My sister in law lives in Austria, She was over 5 years going to Drs and wore a patch in the back of her head before a young Dr found out she had a tick. See recently went in for having trouble breathing, over  2 weeks to find out she need a shunt in a heart vessel. The surgery kept getting postponed as she kept getting infections, even her daughter got a virus visiting her, (maybe they need to quit recycling the air) finally after 5 months they did the operation, she was physically shot due to being in the hosp for so long, They said the surgery was successful, she died 3 weeks later. Gotta love socialized medicine.


I'm honestly sorry to hear about your sister in law. If your going to blame the Affordable Care Act so harshly for what happened to your sister in law in a completely different country, with different rules and customs; why didnt you bring her here to the States and pay for the treatment yourself? Out of your own pocket? I'm guessing you feel the need to blame someone else, because you were to afraid to take responsbility yourself. Didnt you just get done bitching above, to why people dont take responsibility for screw ups? The reason why should than be obvious: its painful, it hurts, and is undesirable to live through. If anything, take this as a chance to make sure someone else's sister-in-law doesnt fall through the cracks! The ACA (or the original concept of it) could only be made better, if the American people wish it to be better. Its made better, because we as Americans understand when the current system of health care does us more harm than good.

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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/6/2012 2:59:37 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
quote:

I just wonder if and when this whole Obama Healthcare act is implemented will my cost go down or up?

What would history suggest to you?
My take is that government involvement always means massive cost increases.


I seem to recall that the United States bailed out some banks with loans that had strings attached to them. And that the loans were paid back plus interest. And that we as a country helped out General Motors by buying up preferred shares of stock. We didnt by the common stock as that would have meant we had control over the company (vote on officers, etc). With preferred stock, if the company did indeed fold we would be paid off before the common stockholders (so we would have recouped some of our loses). And GM has noted that with a long term plan they can be profitable, while paying off the goverment in installments as a 'thank you' to the American people for keeping manufacturing jobs here in the states. And then there's that bill that costed us Americans $878 Billion paid over two years called the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Helped keep the country from sliding into a depression and actually helped a few industries start gaining ground on profitablity status. And then there is that Afforable Care Act that is set to reduce both the deficit and debt by tens of billions of dollars for the next decade.

And Who helped this all come about, on behalf of our country, truckinslave? Why, our wonderful President, Barack Obama!


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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/6/2012 3:06:06 AM   
truckinslave


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Do you prefer Grape, or Cherry?


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: How Collapse Of Health-Care Law Could Help Democrats - 4/6/2012 6:24:26 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Are you familiar with the phrase "whistling past the graveyard"?

Any overturn of Obamaocare will be such a blow to him that I fear he would do a Johnson.

quote:

It means we are going back to debating the status quo versus a national health care system.


If you think the American people have the appetite for this debate right now you are dead wrong.
"Give me four more years to do it again" Really?
If you think Americans are going to vote for Obamao to let him institute single payer you are stupidly dead wrong.

5 votes are all it takes effectively to remove Obamao from office. 5.


LOL. which 5 would those be, the teabaggers and neo-cons out in AZ?

How do you suppose that is going to work without a sitting president for 4 years?

You may fear all you want, but a bill signed into law that is being demonized rather ineffectually by the slobbering teabaggers as Obamaocare or Soetorocare or LookatmeIamateabaggerwithoutbrainsenoughtopourpissoutofabootbut weneedtoservileycapitulatetocorporationscare...will probably be of no more consequence than Bushs treasonous acts. 
  

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