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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 2:33:27 PM

MrBukani

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The council did not create the doctrine of the deity of Christ (as is sometimes claimed) but it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ. This idea of the divinity of Christ along with the idea of Christ as a messenger from the one God ("The Father") had long existed in various parts of the Roman empire. The divinity of Christ had also been widely endorsed by the Christian community in the otherwise pagan city of Rome.[9] The council affirmed and defined what it believed to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is: that Christ is the one true God in deity with the Father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Sure there were many theories already there. Like I heard that some christians believed in reincarnation.
Problem is he made sure it became the law.
So he definitely had a great hand in defining what christianity would turn out to be.
Vatican terrorism.

edit: By doing this they made sure the jews would never be able to acknowledge Jesus as another prophet.
Later Mohammed did sort of the same thing. Or maybe his followers did.

What they actually did was close the door forever. There could never arise another prophet.
They would all be false.
Neat trick aye?

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/16/2012 2:52:38 PM >

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 4:48:10 PM

sunshinemiss

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I apologize. I should have been clearer. It's not that cultures don't have oral traditions. It's that some don't have particularly strong ones. Speaking is frowned upon. Learning is a more visual rather than auditory experience. While even in these groups, people will learn from a combination, others are not afforded that through lack of educational opportunities - because the people themselves are not valued. I'm thinking of the difference between, for example, some Asian cultures and Middle Eastern cultures. There is not a lot of speaking going on in an Asian classroom based on the Confucian philosophy that is interpreted to mean that one never questions the teacher, there is no debate there is no furthering of an idea in a discussion. It is all written. Put a group of people together from the Middle East and you can't hear yourself think because oral traditions, openness to debate and discussion is so prevalent.

Does that clarify a bit?

best,
sunshine

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 8:59:46 PM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It reminds me of when Jesus got mad and threw over the tables in church with mechandise.
Its about the only time i can remember he was angry.

Slightly away from your OP, Mr B, but as I understand it, he overthrew the tables of the money changers. At the Passover, Jews of the time were required to purchase a lamb for slaughter from the Temple Priests. The coin of the realm however was one issued by Pontius Pilate. So, the people of Judea had to change their Roman coins into shekels. I am not exactly sure what it was that angered Jesus: the required purchase of the lamb, the money changers, or the Roman coins. Interesting to note that the Zealot rebellion had already begun, I think, and that would eventually lead to the destruction of the Temple forty years later. Wasn't Jesus tried and executed as an enemy of Rome? Maybe I have that wrong.

Chasing the moneychangers out of the temple, is I believe, a routine Jewish ritual, apparently that's where they habitually did business, it was more like a men's club than our concept of a church, and they were ritually cast out every year to remind them it was still a temple.

Jesus cursed the fig tree, which leads some scholars to conclude he might have had a sense of humor.

Jesus, according to the story, was crucified, which was the Roman method of political execution, the Jews were limited to stoning by their own laws.

It was a politically charged time, there is some indication rabbi Yeshua was the legitimate Davidian heir, and cemented his ascension (to the throne) by marrying a Maccabee at Canae - moot point, since Israel was being ruled by the Arab Herod, appointed by the Romans, and Yeshua was either crucified, or pretended to be crucified (alternate gospels have him escaping to Egyptian exile), perhaps to prevent the revolt from breaking out, which led to the inevitable crushing of Israel by the legions when they arrived, and the diaspora, both predictable since that was pretty much how they did business in those days - Pax Romana: "they make a desert, and call it peace".

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 9:14:24 PM

MrBukani

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I did know chinese culture is very strict with respect for elders. That they dont discuss philosophy I did not know. Maybe depends on the timeframe and location also. Asia is a big place. India, Japan etc.
As far as muslims concern, I am currently learning about islamic Spain, Al Andalus, that seems to have been like you describe. At the same time downsouth the Almohads were not liberal at all. I dont know if open debate in the Middle East is there really this day.
Islam seems to be very strict about their scripture for a long time now. So I doubt they are open about that. Maybe they are about philosophy. On the other hand a lot of philosophy and religion border on each other.
It is well known they did so in Al Andalus.
So the timeframe and location are very important in this case.

I had another thought about Socrates. Since Plato wrote everything down in conversation form, it means that was what Socrates was only really doing. I remember he was challenged as well if he was the wisest.
It would be kinda strange to write down your own conversations perhaps.
On the other hand we know Plato was his student. So in a way he is the only one we can be sure of its sort of a first hand account.
Plato in my mind must have felt a great need to be his scribe. It is a pretty large body of work that survived. He must either have spent a great deal of his life writing or maybe Plato had a scribe himself.

With Jesus I just need to read up more. There is this question, did he speak aramese or hebrew. And I know very little of aramese and context.
Anyway thanks for the reply and the first post already gave me a lot of food for thought.
I didnt expect you back and threads get lost into oblivion fast.
Ive already done some reading on oral tradition wich was very helpfull and the funny thing was.
Oral traditions revolve a lot on passing down moral, even with kids.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 9:25:26 PM

xssve

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The Woes of the Pharisees is by far his best rant though, should be required reading every time Two republicans are in a room together.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 9:43:51 PM

MrBukani

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That was some cool reading of the Pharisees. I love it.
Seems I forgot a lot about the bible. I did have to read it several times when I was young and always loved the stories.
Too bad the vatican made me hate it all.
The church always felt like a dungeon to me. Feelings are often so much stronger then reason.
Maybe thats why I ended up here.