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RE: Master and student - 3/14/2012 7:40:22 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Jesus was ordered to die by God. He had to die for our sins.
If God is omnipotent, then he should have given him time to be more clear about his position.


Actually not. He had a choice.

He even had several outs. He chose not to take them.

But what are time and death in the face of eternity and all creation?

Just saying...I think you're oversimplfying.

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RE: Master and student - 3/14/2012 4:01:31 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		What would you rather like, too simple or too complex.
He had to die for our sins, it was Gods plan.
Some say Jesus is God in this case, there is no choice.
Others say He is not God. When he would choose not to die, he would go against the will of God, wich would make him a sinner.
Also impossible.
Temptation was the word, like the devil tried to turn him over.
Again no choice.
Thats my take.

I would prefer to hear arguments why the greatest philosophers prefered the oral tradition.

In Socrates case we have some answers.
With Buddha I can imagine the same reasoning. There is little violence in his words as far as I know.
So harder to twist then lets say the words of Mohammed. Who can be easily read with violent intent.

Jesus on the other hand is seen as the preacher of love.
But the scripture is riddled with betrayal in the end by his own brethren.
Romans were famous for that. Romulus killed his own brother. Thats how their legacy starts.
Plus the whole theme Jesus had to suffer a gruesome death.
You can see this as the ultimate act of love and sacrifice.
And that word SACRIFICE is what screams to me, even before I ever read about Constantine.
Warmongers need people who want to sacrifice themselves.
In the violent times they lived, it seems most logical to ME.

Is that too simple too?


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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 8:28:30 AM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		It's "the narrative" - it's what we tell each other, what we tell our kids about what is and is not reality and how it works - oral traditions are sets of related memes, that are transmitted orally till somebody writes them down - even if you read a book, and then repeat something you read in it later, you have essentially spread an oral meme, and oral tradition, constructed a narrative.

We communicated through the spoken word long before writing was invented - logos - writing is basically a way of recording a particular narrative, literature is logos on paper.

The weakness of the written word is that someone has to read it in order for it to be transmitted, whereas the spoken word is transmitted much more easily, and reinforced with body language - "we don't hold with that gay stuff around her boy, you better watch your step" - that's an oral narrative, with an implicit threat of enforcement, tantamount to a law, you're going to counter that with an essay, to some fucker can't even read?

Why do you think every great library in the world has been eventually burned? Books are full of disturbing ideas, inconvenient to those who wish to gain control over the narrative - the constitution is a big fucking headache and obstruction to wanna-be SBC theocrats, some words on a piece of paper are all that stand between them and the arbitrary exercise of power.

The spirit of equal protection doesn't apply if you can construct a narrative where some are more equal than others, and make it stick.

The bible is a little more flexible in that respect, with a little imagination you get it to say anything you want it to say.

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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 8:38:00 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I always wondered why Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and Socrates didnt write down the books themselves. Or at least dictated their opinions to a writer directly, if they were analphabetic.
I dont think anybody believes Socrates could not write.
The only logical explanation I have for this is that they were aware words are twisted around once written down.

Whats your take on it?


They were busy.

One thought I had - and I don't espouse it, I just wonder... Did they come from cultures with strong oral traditions?

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 3/15/2012 8:41:32 AM >

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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 8:39:12 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I always wondered why Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and Socrates didnt write down the books themselves.


This was before tenure, so they had no need to publish.



I thought the same thing.... LOL

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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 9:00:33 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Again tenure is a fancy word I had looked up, still I stick with my answer about Plato. Anaxagoras is believed to have written a book also I read, but its lost. That was just for the record.
All cultures have strong oral traditions I presume. I heard a story once a lot was done in rhyme and song, cause that was easier to remember. About the origin of mankind learning to speak, there was a professor who made an interesting argument. We might have learned to use our vocal abilities from birds. Since birds whistle and we emulate/copied sounds to identify different things we tried to explain to our fellow man.

About xssve's argument. I should have considered that oral deliverance is much stronger with intonation, body language and facial expression. Plus the fact the teacher always has the ability to correct wrong thought patterns directly.
It is often said on forums that is where discussions fail to understand cause they miss it.

About memes was interesting too. I developed a whole theory about it with a friend some 10 years back and we decided to keep it for ourselves for the time being. Actually I suggested that. Cause of all the bad things you can use it for. Like neuro linguistic programming.

I bet we can find a lot of lost books in the vatican library.

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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 9:12:29 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
All cultures have strong oral traditions I presume.


No. Many don't. Thus, my question.


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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 9:49:39 AM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
All cultures have strong oral traditions I presume.


No. Many don't. Thus, my question.


Your answer states you might know something I dont. Can you give an example of a culture wich doesnt have one. Maybe youre makin a joke, who knows.
I will gladly do some research afterwards since it is my thread I am supporting.
And for that matter maybe a culture wich does have strong oral tradition, so I can see what you mean in the difference.
Thanks in advance.
Im lookin it up right now and kinda suspect where you are getting at.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/15/2012 9:52:44 AM >

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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 9:53:55 AM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		There are three major categories of speech: reporting, persuasion and coercion, written speech is confined largely to the first Two, it has no inherent coercive power, the constitution, and all written law relies on individuals to recognize, and/or enforce it.

Any mugger can say: "gimme your wallet or I'll fuck you up" - that's coercion - in order to enforce a written statute proscribing that sort of behavior, an individual with the designated authority to represent and enforce that statute has to dispatched to say: "put your hand up, you're under arrest".

The advantage of the written word is that it's verifiable, and as such, a much more convenient tool for establishing a systematic and organized basis for law, which can then be consulted, argued, and amended if necessary through reporting and persuasion.

It why the legal system has evolved as a literary institution, law based on the spoken word is based largely simply on hearsay, it's arbitrary and capricious, and insofar as the law relies on the spoken word, which it does, it too is susceptible to distortion - people lie, make mistakes, see and hear what they want to hear, memory is unreliable, human motivation, diverse. It's an established scientific fact. like I said, nothing's perfect.

Like I said, it's taken centuries and centuries to get this far, a gradual amassing of both oral and literate traditions slowly emerging from a roiling chaos of conflicting human ambition and scheme, it defines, more than any other single thing, what exactly "our way of life" is.

Otherwise, it's pretty much every asshole for himself.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/15/2012 9:54:45 AM >

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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 10:17:32 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		In India even after the advent of script, Vedas were to be learnt only from a Guru though oral rendition and never through reading. One reason could be the need for chaste pronounciation and correct intonation (swara). Another reason could be the selfish desire to keep it the preserve of a few.

Although the Hebrew term "Torah" is often translated as "Law", its actual meaning is "Instruction" or "Teaching". Rabbinic Judaism holds that the books of the Tanakh were transmitted in parallel with an oral tradition, as relayed by God to Moses and from him handed on to the scholarly and other religious leaders of each generation. Thus, in Judaism, the "Written Instruction" (Torah she-bi-khtav תורה שבכתב) comprises the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh; the "Oral Instruction" (Torah she-be'al peh תורה שבעל פה) was ultimately recorded in the Talmud (lit. "Learning") and Midrashim (lit. "Interpretations"). The interpretation of the Oral Torah is thus considered as the authoritative reading of the Written Torah. Further, Halakha (lit. "The Path", frequently translated as "Jewish Law") is based on a "Written Instruction" together with an "Oral Instruction". Jewish law and tradition is thus not based on a literal reading of the Tanakh, but on the combined oral and written tradition.

Even after writing had become common among Arabs, oral performance remained for a long time an acceptable way of passing on knowledge. This phenomenon might have been enhanced by the very nature of Arabic writing itself, which, though later perfected, was based on the consonantal representation of words, the short vowels not being written and remaining always in need of the oral sound of a performer or transmitter to specify them. Thus a word like slm, which could be pronounced in a variety of ways with different combinations of unwritten vowels, depending on the context, had to be orally heard to become authentically meaningful.

The rich and heroic period when the events of the Iliad and the Odyssey took place is known as the Mycenaean Age. Kings built strongholds in wall-fortified cities on hilltops. The period when Homer sang the epic stories and when, shortly after, other talented Greeks (Hellenes) created new literary/musical forms -- like lyric poetry -- is known as the Archaic Age, which comes from a Greek word for "beginning" (arche). Between the two was a mysterious period or "dark age" in which somehow the people of the area lost the ability to write. We know very little about what cataclysm put an end to the powerful society we see in the Trojan War stories.


Just some copy paste shit and there is definite differences, but still I believe most cultures have strong oral traditions. Even to this day.
An interesting suggesting though.

Xssve as usual also interesting, it only ends a bit depressing but true perhaps.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/15/2012 10:20:54 AM >

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RE: Master and student - 3/15/2012 5:42:31 PM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		Yeah, well, it's was more depressing before we had the means to argue about what is right and wrong, and record our thoughts and arguments about it - look at Syria right now: Bashar's word is law, and it doesn't include a lot of the things we take for granted, things that are written into the bill of rights, freedom of speech without coercion, freedom of the press, etc., doesn't include any of these things, it's just whatever Bashar says, and that is a really shitty way to run a country, very few still do it that way - democracy is a pain in the ass, but you have some idea when you go to sleep at night that the situation will not have completely changed by the time you get up - written law allows standards to be established.

It didn't start with statutes, common law is based, for the most part, on traditional ways of doing things, establishing property boundaries, etc. for a long time, that were gradually written into law, and those laws challenged and refined case by case.

Trial by combat settled most disputes for a very long time in England and elsewhere, I believe the last case was Ashford v Thornton in 1818!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_v_Thornton

In any case, the publishing of standards gives you a place to start, something to build on - a cult of personality depends on whether Bashar got any last night or not.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 2:19:55 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		I agree the written word is vital to our society. The pen is mightier then the sword.
But every tool we invent seems to be abused. Religion is the best example.
In a thousand years people will look back on us like we look back at the crusades.
The technical revolution will go down in history as mankinds most important turnpoint I think.
I always said the revolution of the mind comes next.
Although its still a mess the internet is the tool for that.
It will be hard to outrun reason soon.
It is my only hope for a better world.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 5:45:35 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Jesus was apocolyptic. The end time was near. Why bother writing anything? For who?

Not according to most of the gospels he wasn't. He comes across as more of a social reformer than anything else, and nobody who thinks that the end times are looming gives a hoot about changing society for the better.


Matthew 4:17
New King James Version (NKJV)

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Albert Schweitzer emphasized that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet, preparing his fellow Jews for the imminent end of the world. In fact, Schweitzer saw Jesus as a failed, would-be Messiah whose ethic was suitable only for the short interim before the apocalypse.[citation needed] Many historians concur that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet, most notably Paula Fredriksen, Bart Ehrman, and John P. Meier. E. P. Sanders portrays Jesus as expecting to assume the "viceroy" position in God's kingdom, above the Twelve Disciples, who would judge the twelve tribes, but below God

There are opposing interpretations in the cited monologue..


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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 5:50:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Jesus was ordered to die by God. He had to die for our sins.
If God is omnipotent, then he should have given him time to be more clear about his position.


Actually not. He had a choice.

He even had several outs. He chose not to take them.

But what are time and death in the face of eternity and all creation?

Just saying...I think you're oversimplfying.


But there is an inherent contradiction: Jesus is God. He is omnipotent and omnescient. He can't argue with himself. He knows the ending of the tale.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 6:04:17 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Thanks for clearing that statement up with back up Vincent. Its interesting and I never heard it before.
There are many apocalyptic trends in history. Now we are 2012 and we had the 2000 party like its 1999 thing.
The crusades after the first millenium. And now this. Our planet is gonna die for sure. So there is a definite end to this world.
It reminds me of when Jesus got mad and threw over the tables in church with mechandise.
Its about the only time i can remember he was angry.
This on the other hand supports a theory that prophets are doomsday preachers.
I read up on Mohammed last night and that kinda freaked me out a bit.
It showed me the arrogance a lot of muslims seem to suffer from.

It also showed me the oral tradition in arabic language and the problems it brought putting the koran scripture down.
Very interesting.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 10:19:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

It reminds me of when Jesus got mad and threw over the tables in church with mechandise.
Its about the only time i can remember he was angry.


Slightly away from your OP, Mr B, but as I understand it, he overthrew the tables of the money changers. At the Passover, Jews of the time were required to purchase a lamb for slaughter from the Temple Priests. The coin of the realm however was one issued by Pontius Pilate. So, the people of Judea had to change their Roman coins into shekels. I am not exactly sure what it was that angered Jesus: the required purchase of the lamb, the money changers, or the Roman coins. Interesting to note that the Zealot rebellion had already begun, I think, and that would eventually lead to the destruction of the Temple forty years later. Wasn't Jesus tried and executed as an enemy of Rome? Maybe I have that wrong.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 10:30:07 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I agree the written word is vital to our society. The pen is mightier then the sword.
But every tool we invent seems to be abused. Religion is the best example.
In a thousand years people will look back on us like we look back at the crusades.
The technical revolution will go down in history as mankinds most important turnpoint I think.
I always said the revolution of the mind comes next.
Although its still a mess the internet is the tool for that.
It will be hard to outrun reason soon.
It is my only hope for a better world.

Well, the media is part of the problem, a book takes time to read and digest: radio, and to a greater extent television has reduced attention spans own to approximately the length of a soundbyte - it's a tailor made advertising medium, so really, the pinnacle of televisions contribution to mankind is the jingle and the 30 second spot.

Books and internet are much more hostile mediums for advertisers.

I thought I linked to this, but you might like it, it describes some of those factors that illustrate the limits of the written word w/respect to speech.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBdhnmnLnUc&feature=related

What you might call the unspoken word, lol.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/16/2012 10:32:15 AM >

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 10:50:39 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		I read up on it and pontius declared he was not an enemy of rome.
It was Herod the puppet king who accused him of it along with the claim being the messiah and soforth the king of jews wich would be a threat to Herods rule.
So yes and no, what strikes me of the passage is its about the only time jesus shows anger, wich makes him more human.
Like the temptation in the end when the devil speaks to him.
An interesting thing about Mohammed is that he directly was instructed by God.
But he had words put upon his tongue by Iblis/ the devil in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses
Later these verses were removed.
Bottomline is, even if muslims and christians and jews say their books are pure revelations, still its debated to this day by all followers whats pure.

So we still have the authority to redefine what is pure. Since the prophets refused to write it down themselves.

By the time of Jesus it was well known what force scripture has.
Mohammed seemed to be more involved with waging war.
Mohammed was 63 by the time he died. So he had plenty of time.
Jesus was only 33, but he insisted to confront a battle he knew, he could not win.
By riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.
It seems like all prophets did the same as God. Leave it up to us to decide.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 11:08:09 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I am not exactly sure what it was that angered Jesus: the required purchase of the lamb, the money changers, or the Roman coins.

It was because conducting business defiled the Temple.
    And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. ~John 2:13-16
K.

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RE: Master and student - 3/16/2012 2:25:43 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

xssve, I am aware of the throwin together Constantine did. It is why I believe they called Jesus the son of God.


That was pretty much all set well before Constantine had a hand in it.

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