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Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 7:31:13 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
Status: offline 		S and I invited a fellow contra dancer to join our band on a 'let's see what happens' basis. She's admittedly new-ish to fiddle playing and drumming. We love her enthusiasm but after a couple months of practicing it's apparent we overestimated her playing abilities. She's holding us back. Neither of us look forward to telling her it isn't going to work out, especially since we invited her in the first place.

How best to say it?

Thanks, y'all.



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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 7:52:47 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Gracious and direct, is all I can say.

NOT envious of your position. Can she maybe take lessons and try again in a year?

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 8:06:08 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		There isn't any way that won't leave her feeling upset and rejected.

I would lead off with your positive compliment about her energy and enthusiasm, and then say that unfortunately she isn't up to the level of skill you require.  And hopefully, after she gets more training, maybe it could work out.

But it's not going to be pleasant no matter how you do it. So I suggest doing so in public where she might control her reactions better.


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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 8:12:02 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		I'm not very compassionate these days.  However, I agree with the above posts.  Direct and to the point is always the best.  And leave some room that perhaps she can "tryout" in the future after she'd taken some classes.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 8:22:54 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		MDD

I'd suggest you do what I do in this situation - you fold the entire project, the entire, project, explain that something's come up, and for now you can't practice. You make your apologies, take her number, assure her that you will be in touch, and then you watch her leave.

Give it a few days, and then you carry on before.

It's the classic 'don't call us we'll call you' solution from theatre and the film industry.

Hope it helps.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 8:33:30 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
Status: offline 		Usually when somebody starts, "You know, Wendy, we love your ____ " Wendy has it figured out that the next word is "but."

Band-aid method - in public - gets my vote.  Any delay is not fair to either her nor the band.

"but .... we think you've had a fair time to audition and we've decided to ask you to leave us, but with lottsa hugs and good wishes for your career."  YOU learn YOUR lesson - make any next offer time-limited!  You might also apologize for not doing so in her case.

I would NOT suggest "classes."  NOR would I suggest a lower-tier band to get experience.

I might say "You've got your heart in the right place and we suggest you keep it up."
Maybe "Come back in a year and we'll do another 1 month try-out."

What do ALL the rejects say from "American Idol" and such?  They ALL say "Thank you for this opportunity."  Difference here is you didn't make her a test with time-for-try-out.

And maybe that's YOUR out - apologize for not doing so.....

AND maybe she feels that she herself needs to quit... she might very well realize that she's holding you back and here energy and enthusaism is a result of trying to "hold up her end" while she knows that it's not working for youse guys!!!!

// off top of my head - doesn't flow - but there's some ideas to pick-n-choose from //

ETA: Use TOTAL "I statements."  Avoid anything like "You need to take classes ..." OR "You're good but you're not good enough...." 

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 1/5/2012 8:40:24 PM >

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 8:37:34 PM   
LanceHughes


Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

MDA

I'd suggest you do what I do in this situation - you fold the entire project, the entire, project, explain that something's come up, and for now you can't practice. You make your apologies, take her number, assure her that you will be in touch, and then you watch her leave.

Give it a few days, and then you carry on before.

It's the classic 'don't call us we'll call you' solution from theatre and the film industry.

Hope it helps.
fixed
I'm surprised, stella. Surprised that you would suggest a lie.  The lie will be discovered .... oh, about 6 minutes after they start up again...... NASTY, NASTY.  I'd be so pissed.... and what comes around goes around.

Maybe this gal can get a higher place than MDA and then "revenge is sweet."

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 1/5/2012 8:42:55 PM >

_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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50 nz points

Member: VAA's posse

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 8:41:02 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

MDD

I'd suggest you do what I do in this situation - you fold the entire project, the entire, project, explain that something's come up, and for now you can't practice. You make your apologies, take her number, assure her that you will be in touch, and then you watch her leave.

Give it a few days, and then you carry on before.

It's the classic 'don't call us we'll call you' solution from theatre and the film industry.

Hope it helps.


That's a good tactic for someone you never run into, and probably won't see often at all, but if this is an aquaintance they see on a regular basis, I don't think this is the wisest course.
Just an "I'm sorry but this isn't working out well for the group; please keep in touch as who knows what may happen in the future" type speech, and then maybe try to set up a dinner/drinks date just so everyone knows there are no hard feelings.
It won't be easy no matter how you do it though.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 8:50:17 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDarkArt

S and I invited a fellow contra dancer to join our band on a 'let's see what happens' basis. She's admittedly new-ish to fiddle playing and drumming. We love her enthusiasm but after a couple months of practicing it's apparent we overestimated her playing abilities. She's holding us back. Neither of us look forward to telling her it isn't going to work out, especially since we invited her in the first place.

How best to say it?

Thanks, y'all.





Video tape a session then sit down with her and watch together. Tell her that you were hoping the mix would produce a different result than the video tape shows and that you are all just not compatible as a group at this time. You are disappointed it didn't work as well as you had hoped, so tell her that as well. Make it about the mix, not any particular ingredient.

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 9:12:51 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
Status: offline 		Thank you, everyone. I appreciate your suggestions. We have to handle this very tactfully (and truthfully) because the contra/acoustic music circle in our area is very, very inbred. There is a lot of crossover between dancers being musicians and vice versa, and we see each other frequently at events.

This sure feels like having to fire someone.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 9:18:32 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

MDD

I'd suggest you do what I do in this situation - you fold the entire project, the entire, project, explain that something's come up, and for now you can't practice. You make your apologies, take her number, assure her that you will be in touch, and then you watch her leave.

Give it a few days, and then you carry on before.

It's the classic 'don't call us we'll call you' solution from theatre and the film industry.

Hope it helps.


That's a good tactic for someone you never run into, and probably won't see often at all, but if this is an aquaintance they see on a regular basis, I don't think this is the wisest course.
Just an "I'm sorry but this isn't working out well for the group; please keep in touch as who knows what may happen in the future" type speech, and then maybe try to set up a dinner/drinks date just so everyone knows there are no hard feelings.
It won't be easy no matter how you do it though.


Oh in that case then I'm afraid you'll have to go for honesty.. Just be frank...



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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/5/2012 9:30:16 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDarkArt

How best to say it?




Straightforward and honest. The blend isn't working.

Or... Have a couple screaming, cursing arguments with each other in practice, and make her feel so uncomfortable she quits on her own.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 12:08:06 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Tell her you're going to be moving on to some much more complicated and faster stuff.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 1:30:29 AM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

[/size][/color]I'm surprised, stella. Surprised that you would suggest a lie.  The lie will be discovered .... oh, about 6 minutes after they start up again...... NASTY, NASTY.  I'd be so pissed.... and what comes around goes around.

Maybe this gal can get a higher place than MDA and then "revenge is sweet."


Lance, I can see where you are coming from. But this was on the basis that this was a much wider community which was my assumption. It was also my assumption that there could have been an audition involved and this is something which could have come out after the audition, which is also possible.

It's also the lesser of two evils because not everybody takes rejection well, especially when it's their creative work that's involved. The same can be said for criticism. You see when people work creatively they also work with their own ideas. When you become critical of their ideas it kind of stifles them creatively. This is much more the case when the ability is much weaker, whether it's playing an instrument, singing, acting, or something similar.

I admit that it isn't a pleasant white lie, but it is a white lie. If you want to still see it as nasty please feel free. But I know from my experience in such an unfortunate situation, and it is an unfortunate situation, that it often is the lesser of two evils.


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Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 6:52:41 AM   
Fornica


Posts: 2986
Status: offline 		"Accidentally" break her instrument!
Do it like this:
You're all playing. Play for HOURS (everyone will have to pee at some point). When she goes to the bathroom, RUNNNNNNNNNNN and dogpile on top of each other, as though a friendly wrestle spontaneously occured. While you're in the dogpile, throw her instrument out on the lawn. (break a window if necessary).
She comes back in, and thinks it's an orgy, not a dogpile.
She gets naked, and everyone stares at her, like wtf Wendy?
She gets embarrassed about her faux pas, and mumbles that she needs to go home to cook oatmeal and flees out the door, forgetting her instrument (since it's out of sight, she doesn't think of it).
After she leaves, the rest of you go out to the lawn and get it. Place it in the driveway, and take turns running over it.
Leave it in the driveway. Everyone pretend not to notice.
Next practise, as she drives in, SCREAM LOUDLY, as though she just hit a small child (she'll think that part is funny later).
When she leaps from her car, point in horror (practise your "horror" face) at her smushed instrument.
As she is lamenting what to do, and how she can't afford a replacement, calmly turn to her and say
"Actually. We're glad it's wrecked, because, frankly, you suck and we wanted to kick you out, but didn't want to be mean."

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 7:20:13 AM   
seababy


Posts: 845
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fornica


"Actually. We're glad it's wrecked, because, frankly, you suck and we wanted to kick you out, but didn't want to be mean."


LMFAO!

I know biological its impossible but I love you and want to have your babies.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 7:20:17 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Sucks for her to be the Stuart Sutcliffe of the band. Ah well, direct and honest is always best. Think of it as a kindness, since Perhaps she will realize she needs to put more time into her craft.

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Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 7:30:07 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		I cast my vote with the "straight forward and honest" crowd.  You don't want to hurt their feelings and that is admirable but sometimes there is no way around it and anything else would be unfair.  You also do not want to be on the recieving end of the bad thoughts and anger she is likely to feel towards you.  That is only human.  Though it may not be justified, it is also all to human to blame others for our own failings.  However being a leader means making these sacrifices sometimes.  The leader is a servant.  They serve the group they lead and sometimes that means making the tough decisions and taking the hit (so to speak) for them.  Although she may leave hurt and angry, time has a way of changing our perspectives.  Years from now she may look back upon this as a learning experience and she may well be appreciative of your honesty.

Amongst the he toughest words I ever heard were "Marc... you're a lousy football player... and you are not going to be on my team."  I was pissed and he was obviously an asshole who couldn't recognize superior talent when he saw it... or so I thought at the time.  Now I realize that he was right, that he did what he had to do for the good of the team (which went on to win the championship that year) and I appreciate that he was honest with me rather than try to coddle me. 

Respectfully, I disagree with DesFip about breaking the news in public.  That is unfair to her percisely because it doesn't allow them the freedom to be upset.  If they can't control their emotions, it adds public humiliation on top of everything.  Delivering bad news in public is a shield against having to witness a "scene."  Unless you think their reaction is going to be violent, private is the way to go.  It is the respectful thing to do.  In general, when it comes to authority dealing with subordinates, I am of the "praise in public, criticize in private" school of thought.

I must also repectfully disagree with Stella regardless of wether you will run into her again or not... it is dishonest.  Even if you got away with it, it would give her a false sense of "I'm good at this" and only set her up for another (perhaps greater) disapointment later on if someone else has to let her go.  In short, it's passing the buck.

Lastly, I would suggest that in the future you tell any newcomers that there is a probationary period and at the end of it a final decision will be made.  This will will make the blow less painful (not much though, I'll grant) in that at least it won't be a complete surprise.  It will also motivate them to do their best and maybe even seek constructive criticism from you.

Good Luck.



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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 7:33:54 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDarkArt

Thank you, everyone. I appreciate your suggestions. We have to handle this very tactfully (and truthfully) because the contra/acoustic music circle in our area is very, very inbred. There is a lot of crossover between dancers being musicians and vice versa, and we see each other frequently at events.

This sure feels like having to fire someone.



Because it is. And the sad thing is, we are not all equal when art enters the picture, and some of us will never be top of the line regardless of enthusiasm. I was figuring this would be one of those incestuous situations, too...

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RE: Compassionate Communicators: Help Please - 1/6/2012 7:40:25 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		FR

I like the idea of taping your rehearsal/session and sitting down with her to "critique the mix". If she has any ear at all she will see that it just isn't working out and won't fault you for suggesting that as a group you find a new *instrument* player that fits the mix better.

I'm a singer and even though I've been told I have a good voice, I hate hearing myself on tape. I'll be able to hear if it just isn't working out with those I'm singing/playing with.

(in reply to Marc2b)
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