RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods

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LafayetteLady -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 9:53:52 AM)
It would make sense if the buyer (as in store owner) had to pay for the goods by check. Then they would have to get the seller's personal information, etc. and it would ease tracking stolen goods. Most people who buy the stuff have no idea or care where it came from. As far as they are concerned, they bought it at a second hand store. The idea of doing this with flea markets, garage sales and thrift stores is absolutely ridiculous. And exempting the pawn shops? The politicians in that state must be on drugs.

Moonhead -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 11:01:35 AM)
Presumably pawn shops are exempt for a couple of reasons: 1 they pay sales tax and 2 the NRA would throw a shitfit if somebody couldn't buy cheap used guns from a pawnshop anymore. I can't imagine why else it would be...

Winterapple -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 11:35:59 AM)
This is insane! And discriminatory. There are people who don't have checking accounts or credit cards. Taking a money order to a garage sale or a flea market would be silly. All sorts of small business shops, antique, secondhand clothes used books will suffer from this idiot law.

popeye1250 -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 12:31:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama "This note is legal tender for all debts..." but: http://articles.mcall.com/2010-04-09/news/all-a5_5warrior0409.7229382apr09_1_debit-sam-s-club-cards The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve provide information on their Web sites specifying that the ''legal tender'' phrase on our currency does not mandate that cash be accepted as payment for any and every debt. ''Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash, unless there is a state law which says otherwise,'' notes Treasury. http://5minforecast.agorafinancial.com/the-day-they-banned-cash/ Federal courts have upheld similar statutes in New York, Mississippi and Tennessee. Those laws were more narrowly tailored to scrap metal, but in each case, they were challenged on the grounds that states and cities can’t ban transactions in legal tender, i.e., Federal Reserve Notes. Each time, the challenges were thrown out. “States are saying, ‘We have the right to specify the form in which the payments are made, then you can tender the check for any legal tender you want,’” explains Mark Beebe of the New Orleans law firm Adams and Reese. “They’re not saying this is the only medium you can use and that’s where it ends.” That lawyer is wrong, it says on currency, "ALL DEBTS." It doesn't list any exceptions. The state of Louisiana is probably overstepping the tenth amendment.

Delilya -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 12:58:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Winterapple This is insane! And discriminatory. There are people who don't have checking accounts or credit cards. Taking a money order to a garage sale or a flea market would be silly. All sorts of small business shops, antique, secondhand clothes used books will suffer from this idiot law. This would be me. I have never had a credit card, never had any desire to have a credit card . If I can't afford to pay cash for something I wait until I can. I also stopped using banks when they stopped being customer service oriented and started nickle and dimming for every little thing. I buy money orders to pay my bills and US Savings Bonds for the money I put up. Glad I don't live there, my heart goes out to those who do, and I hope it doesn't set a precedent for other states to follow suit.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 1:12:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Delilya Glad I don't live there, my heart goes out to those who do, and I hope it doesn't set a precedent for other states to follow suit. that's what i'm most concerned about. you can get any silly thing over on people if you say "it'll help fight the criminals!" the criminals don't care and never cared -- especially since the pawn shops don't even count. hahaha

LizDeluxe -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 2:26:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep taking away a law-abiding citizen's ability to use cash is just waaaaaaay over the line. Indeed... and the irony of it all is that law abiding citizens are not the ones causing the problem.

tj444 -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 2:42:33 PM)
I really wonder how they are going to enforce this law. Pose as buyers at garage sales? do a raid on craigslist? Send swat teams in to bust the criminal little secondhand store? Will there be a new criminal cash4goods division in the police dept? They can put all sorts of laws on the books (just google "stupid laws") but enforcing them is something else..

xxblushesxx -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 3:14:10 PM)
That's exactly what HM was just saying. I hadn't considered the enforcement issues.

AdorkableAiley -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 4:24:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep debit card transactions cost fees, fees to businesses, and now of course, monthly fees to people who use some banks. money orders aren't free; there's a purchase fee attached to them. and not all banks offer free checks. so now you're basically having to pay to pay for something. =p that's just inane. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I was saying to the man.... yep... just what I am going to do with stolen goods... donate them to the Salvation Army. right? =p or some little mom 'n pop antique store. =p Yeah and there goes the savings you were hoping to have by buying used in the first place! Why are people so stupid? And why are the most stupid people the ones in charge??? Ailey the very confused!

AdorkableAiley -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 4:29:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 I really wonder how they are going to enforce this law. Pose as buyers at garage sales? do a raid on craigslist? Send swat teams in to bust the criminal little secondhand store? Will there be a new criminal cash4goods division in the police dept? They can put all sorts of laws on the books (just google "stupid laws") but enforcing them is something else.. Yeah and it looks real good on police when they handcuff and take in a little old lady for accepting cash at her garage sale...

roscho -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 5:29:51 PM)
Black Market. Cash allows it, a complex credit and banking system doesn't. With the tremendous reduction in real estate valuations (property taxes), along with the high unemployment rate, local/city/state/federal taxes are coming up short by multiples that weren't planned for. This is kind of similar to the old Reagan "trickle down" theory, but we are so far beyond that at this point that government failure is becoming more of a reality. If Craigslist gives us a broad marketplace to trade via cash, there is no tax realization. I was driving today and picked up the Dennis Miller radio show, and really liked one thing he said... We're soft. Our forefathers, when their tea was taxed without representation, were out killing MF's.

popeye1250 -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 6:48:16 PM)
The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve provide information on their Web sites specifying that the ''legal tender'' phrase on our currency does not mandate that cash be accepted as payment for any and every debt. The U.S. Treasury and the Federal reserve said that? That's funny, I can't remember our Congress making any law like that? What do we have at Treasury and the Federal Reserve, beaurocrats and political appointees making "laws" now? By-passing the Congress?

Termyn8or -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/20/2011 8:21:54 PM)
Pops, you are probably the one most on target here. Years ago there was a scam you could supposedly run on gas stations. What you would do is to fill your tank late at night, back when it only cost twenty or thirty bucks, and attempt to pay with a hundred. Outside, if they turned on the pump and didn't have a sign stating they would not accept such a large bill you got out of paying. They would attempt to call the police but you would insist on a state trooper who would then inform them that if they refused the legal tender they had to give you the product for free. I almost tried to run this on a music store for about $40,000 worth of equipment, and that was because they tried to say that there was no warranty on the equipment unless the customer had and "submitted" a phone number. I could've come up with the cash, and would have called the staties myself on the cellphone but it never happened. For all the hassle it would not have been worth it, but the premise was that I had cash and without a phone they would not treat me the same as another customer even though I had the cash. It was a bit too complex according to my people. But at one time this would work supposedly. Calling the troopers is crucial because they are the ones who bust the cops. If what they say about the fed's website is true, then they are lying. I find that very easy to believe, however I also find it easy to believe that such a thing was actually legislated and even signed by a President somewhere, could have been in the PATRIOT act. So I am not sure what to believe exactly. Butif cash is no good, why have it ? Now the nanny government can hold ALL your money for you. She can also make sure you don't spend it on bad things. It is seriously time for a revolution. A decade or two ago I think there would have been a problem, that the military would put down a rebellion. But as time goes on I find that less and less likely. I don't think our Men like fighting for these MFs anymore. I think a time may come when the military WILL be a big problem, but not for We The People. I am still waiting to see what happens with this Wall Street thing. I think we're in for a hell of a show. At least I hope so. I want blood. ETA : "What do we have at Treasury and the Federal Reserve, beaurocrats and political appointees making "laws" now? By-passing the Congress? " Yes, it started with the IRS. And while you're at it find out who "passed" USC2257. Beaurocrats are empowered in the small print. Beware of the small print. It is all small print. T^T

tazzygirl -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/21/2011 3:44:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve provide information on their Web sites specifying that the ''legal tender'' phrase on our currency does not mandate that cash be accepted as payment for any and every debt. The U.S. Treasury and the Federal reserve said that? That's funny, I can't remember our Congress making any law like that? What do we have at Treasury and the Federal Reserve, beaurocrats and political appointees making "laws" now? By-passing the Congress? Legal Tender Status I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal? The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy. http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

tiggerspoohbear -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/21/2011 7:06:52 AM)
So no cash to be used but personal cheques are OK? I worked in retail for enough years to know that personal cheques often bounce. And trying to track down the culprit who used them to get the $$ back, well, I had to go to ridiculous lengths, including charging them with fraud to get that money back. Then you have the fees that you're charged if a cheque you accepted goes ba-boing. Regular folks can't just call up a bank to find out if a cheque is good or not, that option, last I knew, was available to large retailers only. And that's not even a guarantee. Who's to say the money won't be immediately pulled out of the account? I live on a very limited income. My bills get paid the 1st of every month then I pull out the cash left and know that's what I have left for the month. Using a debit card, and I have one, is also useless and I don't keep track of things as well. So I'd be screwed. Thank the rubber duckies I live in Canada and no politician has thought to pass any such stupid legislation here.

tazzygirl -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/21/2011 8:22:40 AM)
Many companies are now using the check verify systems.... they guarantee payment to the business owner... at a price.

Missokyst -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/21/2011 8:54:19 AM)
One reason they are exempt is because they have to keep records of where the items came from in the first place. Let's say Billybob takes his TV in to sell for a quick buck. The pawn shop must get his ID, and a reasonable expectation of his current address. For the sake of law enforcement their ass is covered. But in another shop that buys and sells for profit, or that yard sale down the street that is always up on weekends, they don't have those bases covered. In my job as a computer repair person, every now and then we get a questionable computer come in the office that clearly does not belong to the guy who brings it. Last month one guy who was still high and with no kind of sense said he needed the password removed and it cleaned up so he could sell it. I asked him if he had any idea what the password might be and he said no, it was hot. Umm.. I think if you were the owner of a stolen item you might want to know who brought it to the reseller shop. IF those reseller shops were made to keep records maybe that stupid law would not have been passed. Apart from people who make their living on yard sales that are always up, I don't see any value in having to keep records of the occasional yard saler. I note that the cash only law is not applicable for places like goodwill which are non profit. That makes sense. Goodwill is not paying anyone for the items they sell, and therefore is no use for someone who steals. [Besides non-profit resellers like Goodwill, and garage sales, the language of the bill encompasses stores like the Pioneer Trading Post and flea markets. Lawyer Thad Ackel Jr. feels the passage of this bill begins a slippery slope for economic freedom in the state. "The government is placing a significant restriction on individuals transacting in their own private property," says Ackel. Pawn shops have been forced to keep records of their clients for years. However under this bill they are still allowed to deal in cash.] quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Presumably pawn shops are exempt for a couple of reasons: 1 they pay sales tax and 2 the NRA would throw a shitfit if somebody couldn't buy cheap used guns from a pawnshop anymore. I can't imagine why else it would be...

popeye1250 -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/22/2011 1:08:59 AM)
quote: RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods - 10/20/2011 2:42:33 PM No New Messages quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve provide information on their Web sites specifying that the ''legal tender'' phrase on our currency does not mandate that cash be accepted as payment for any and every debt. The U.S. Treasury and the Federal reserve said that? That's funny, I can't remember our Congress making any law like that? What do we have at Treasury and the Federal Reserve, beaurocrats and political appointees making "laws" now? By-passing the Congress? Legal Tender Status I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal? The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy. http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx Tazzy, that's quite different than a beaurocrat "making up laws", ( the unelected as rulers?) Also, you have a state that's making rules about federal currency. Didn't Arizona get sued for doing the feds job?

Termyn8or -> RE: Louisiana bans cash for buying second hand goods (10/22/2011 1:55:19 AM)
FR Studying all this law is almost out of the question for normal humans, let alone politicians. There are people who have studied in groups, the UCC, USC, a good piece of federal legislation as well as other forms of law. I think they will tell you that this is unenforcable period. First of all, if you sell a lawn chair or mower out of a garage sale it is a private transaction. You are not operating in commerce because in such a transaction you are free to take any "tender" you please. The "purchaser" (DO NOT USE THAT WORD IN COURT) can be required to tender, instead of cash, their snow blower, that McDonald's monopoly piece, a set of wrenches or a piece of ass. This type of regulation then inherently only falls on businesses, which are operating in commerce. And that brings us to another thing, just as the IRS code is only a code, a business can operate this way. You simply rent out a storefront and do it. File nothing. Do not get a vendor's license or anything, do not even keep records. All transactions are either barter or cash. If they even get around to busting you, which will take years, you can actually get out of it. A few things you cannot do, like open a resaurant. Actually you could if you wanted to take on the legal challenge but that is simply not worth it. What's more if there are no records there is no evidence. Used goods, so now if you buy something refurbished from a company they can't take cash ? What about used cars ? Actually in law most people do not understand though that you do not own a car, you only own a certificate of title to the car. When you "buy a car" you get the car physically but you are buying "certificate of title" which establishes you as holder in good behavior. You get a new certificate of title in your name. The car is still owned by the state. The same is true of real estate. Almost all real estate is used wouldn't ya say ? We are so used to the illusion of that ownership that deep down we know we do not own property. But alot of people don't realize it is the same with cars. Tell me the difference between property taxes and license plate fees. And tell me how they are not making money on it, that they are just protecting us. For one this cannot apply to private party sales, the first motherfucker with a lawyer (worth a shit) is going to make case law to that effect. Number two, anything that requires a signature to transfer "ownership" is exempt period. And while it is true that a state is not able to legislate the use of federal currency, which will eventually be proven, the federal government can. Because my friends if you think about it, you do not own the money either. They own it all, we are just using it. RealO is the one to ask about that no matter what you think. He would find the laws pertaining to it, and this time it will not be bullshit. Let me put it to you this way. You get a piece of paper from the government saying you own property, but they can take it if you don't pay your taxes. You get a piece of paper stating that you "own" a car or a boat, but if they catch you using it for something they don't like, like smuggling or something they can take it. Even if they impound your car for driving on expired plates, they make you pay that "rent" as well as a penalty for not paying on time. Those federal reserve notes in your pocket are numbered. It's not quite the same thing, but it is not that different. They can take it away. They have done so. The fact is they have taken large sums of money from people who have never done anything wrong, who were traveling out of state to buy a bunch of cattle or something. This is not made up, these people had to fight to get their mioney back. Look at FEAR.ORG for plenty of examples. The fact is that you own nothing. If it can be taken away from you and it is not considered theft, it belongs to those who took it. That would be the government. They can take anything and everything you think you own. That is because property cannot own property. They will dictate when and where any property can be exchanged, and what is allowed and what is not. You are a natural resource to be exploited like a fucking crop of wheat. On the global plantation. That is how they think folks, call me full of shit but you can't prove me wrong. T^T

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