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Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 2:33:45 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/men-culture-honor-deadly-180403608.html

When it is explained, as the article says, it makes sense but I feel the title is misleading to a degree.


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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 2:40:19 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		I agree with the article but agree that with you that the title is misleading.
I used to see a lot of this honor stuff among men while growing up and always thought it was stupid and I still do. When I see men who do stuff to "defend" their honor I just think "little boy" and it turns me off.

You wanna defend your honor? Walk away and forget about it.



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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 3:12:06 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		More ego than honor, I think. My kids took karate years ago and their instructor, black belt who won national competitions, talked to them all the time about the importance of not escalating stuff. About not taking what people say as an excuse to fight. "Talk your way out, walk your way out, run your way out" was the phrase he used. Fighting was always the last resort.

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 3:40:15 PM   
Termyn8or


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Now THAT I respect.

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 3:51:29 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

http://news.yahoo.com/men-culture-honor-deadly-180403608.html

When it is explained, as the article says, it makes sense but I feel the title is misleading to a degree.



Honour? I have always heard the term/behaviour being described in this article as "Machismo."

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 3:54:49 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		No, there is a difference.

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 4:02:38 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

No, there is a difference.

T^T


LOL

Yes, there is.

My point is that what they are discussing in the article sounds less like the definition of honor and more like the definition of machismo.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 4:22:37 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		Yahoo and cnn have lately been deliberately writing misleading headlines to draw people in.

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 4:28:35 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Yahoo and cnn have lately been deliberately writing misleading headlines to draw people in.


That's nothing new. Like the news teasers that shout at you something like, "Your children will spontaneously combust next time they do this common activity!!!!! We'll tell you what that common activity is at 11!" And it's only 7:15.


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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 4:29:36 PM   
hardcybermaster


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Status: offline 		honour, what a load of bollocks. If I am in a bar and some bloke calls me a cunt I just laugh. Who the fuck is he to call me a cunt? He doesn't even know me. Why should I give a shit about his opinion? My level of aggresssion or pissed offness or embarrassment is zero.
Do you want to make something of it?
Do you want to step outside?
No I fucking don't.
Is there a difference between honour and machismo?
Yes but only for small minded idiots

Your mom's a whore
Well actually she isn't and you are just a pissed bloke looking for a fight,fuck ofF.

Your dad sucks cock.
really? good for him.

Until someone actually attacks someone I care about I am doing fuck all

You are a gay
Yeah sure whatever you say man.

Grow up

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 4:44:04 PM   
Caius


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Status: offline 		Well, let's bear in mind that social psychology is not the most empirical branch of the cognitive sciences, and this theory seems steeped more in conjecture than a hard analytic approach based on clear-cut data.   As regards the first source cited, we aren't told what the author of the study used to define which states were "honour" states and which were "non-honour".  Given how subjective such terms are, I don't know how you would ever get a consensus view on what distinguishes one region as more honour-based than another.  It's entirely possible the criteria used was really nothing more than "these are the states traditionally said to have an honour culture," which is classic selection bias and obviously doesn't cut muster for true empirical work.  The second source used self-analysis reports, notoriously useful for determining virtually nothing concerning human nature with any degree of reliability.  

And there's a rather obvious factor which skews the report in the use of the word honour itself.  As others have noted, what is defined as honour here does not necessarily correlate to what all people who would use the term would define it, including those inclined to view it as an important trait.  In particular, there's an emphasis on connecting the word -- and who can say if this is an invention of this broad audience article or was in the original research -- with a mindset where a premium is placed on protecting ones image from perceived slights.  But honour is such a broadly used term and this seems like rather a narrow application.  A lot of people use honour as a more general term regarding a code of conduct, propriety, and "rightness" with regard to their behaviour, particularly in relation to the social fabric around them.  Plenty of people would no doubt consider it a dictate of their idea of honour to allow their public image to be besmirched, if it meant serving a higher moral guideline, such as self-discipline, pacifism, or loyalty.   Between the shoddy-looking science (again, at least as it's portrayed in this non-peer-review article) and the obvious semantic issues clouding their interpretation, I'd say it's hard to find anything terribly convincing in the article. 

< Message edited by Caius -- 8/15/2011 5:21:07 PM >

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 4:49:15 PM   
hardcybermaster


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Status: offline 		use paragraphs or spacing dude
wanna make something of it?

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 5:13:00 PM   
Caius


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Status: offline 		Hah, that is a paragraph for me.  You're lucky there's just the one - you should see some of my past posts here; I can be fairly (probably unnecessarily) long-winded when speaking about something that I feel is really in my wheelhouse.



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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 5:16:16 PM   
hardcybermaster


Posts: 904
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Status: offline 		not happy that you didn't want make something of it, my honour is.............. ahhh bollocks
I am a reductionist
it works sometimes

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 5:20:27 PM   
Muttling


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't define it as "honor" so much as I would taking risks to save reputation and bravado.   Honor has a very different meaning to me, it's more of doing what's right than showing off.

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 5:24:18 PM   
Caius


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Status: offline 		Hah, I might have but for the fact that your avatar image suggests we are part of the same honour-clan and thus my hands are tied.  So sorry. ;)

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 5:26:00 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

I wouldn't define it as "honor" so much as I would taking risks to save reputation and bravado. Honor has a very different meaning to me, it's more of doing what's right than showing off.


Exactly

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 6:01:26 PM   
Caius


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Status: offline 		The bizarre thing is that there is another word which obviously has a much stronger one-to-one correspondence with what they are describing; it's "pride."  But of course if you're trying to engineer results in a study where people define their own characteristics, it's much easier to get them to commit to being "honourable" as opposed to prideful, the former having a much more positive connotation than the latter, at least when it comes to the context of defending one's name.  And, if you're then trying to sell the theory, it sounds much more like a discovery if you couch your position in language like "we propose there is a correlation between observed honour-class constituents with regard to propensity for risk-taking behaviour" than if you just say the obvious "Pride often leads to shortsighted behaviour" which is likely to be greeted with a resounding "Duh?".  Unfortunately, this is a trick employed all-too-often in social science academia, using overwrought language to hide the lack of substance in a theory or the fact that you're just stating the obvious.

< Message edited by Caius -- 8/15/2011 6:07:58 PM >

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 6:30:32 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Yes, but you forget that the people engaging in this activity think of it not as boosting their pride, but defending their honor. Look back a couple of hundred years to see people engaging in dueling to prove who was honorable. They certainly didn't say they were doing it to say who had more pride.

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RE: Honour is dangerous to your health.......who knew.. - 8/15/2011 6:43:14 PM   
Caius


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Status: offline 		That's rather my point; the way the language is employed (which is of vital importance in a study that already uses the shaky 'evidence' of self-reports) allows the subjects to presume one meaning while the interpretations of their resulting responses rely on another.  A proper scientific study relies on more controlled variables.

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