Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (Full Version)

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FirstQuaker -> Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 5:43:29 AM)

Not happy with manipulating the petroleum markets, it looks like the corporate banking gangsters have now found a new scheme to use.

"A string of warehouses in Detroit, most of them operated by Goldman, has stockpiled more than a million tonnes of the industrial metal aluminum, about a quarter of global reported inventories. Simply storing all that metal generates tens of millions of dollars in rental revenues for Goldman every year. There's just one problem: only a trickle of the aluminum is leaving the depots, creating a supply pinch for manufacturers of everything from soft drink cans to aircraft. The resulting spike in prices has sparked a clash between companies forced to pay more for their aluminum and wait months for it to be delivered, Goldman, which is keen to keep its cash machines humming and the London Metal Exchange (LME), the world's benchmark industrial metals market, which critics accuse of lax oversight. - http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-goldmans-money-machine-warehouses-090810768.html

So now the scheme is to control the metals markets by owning the warehouse facilities and profit off the 'rent' while slow walking commodities delivery?

"Robin Bhar, a veteran metals analyst at Credit Agricole in London says the conflict of interest is so acute he wants U.S. and European anti-trust regulators to weigh in. "I think it makes a mockery of the market. It's a shame," Bhar said. "This is an anti-competitive situation. It puts (some) companies at an advantage, and clearly the rest of the market at a disadvantage. It's a real, genuine concern. And I think the regulators have to look at it.""

However the banksters say -

"Goldman said its warehouse subsidiary Metro International Trade Services has done nothing illegal, and abides by the LME's warehousing rules. "Producers have chosen to store metal in Detroit with Metro," a Goldman spokeswoman said. "We follow the LME requirements in terms of storing and releasing metals from our warehouses." The London Metal Exchange defends its rules. "There is a perception that consumers have not been able to get to their metal when the reality is that it is big banks, financing companies and warehouses that are not able to get to their huge tonnages of metal fast enough," said LME business development manager Chris Evans."

But the reality is that -

"Goldman's warehouse business relies on a lucrative opportunity enabled by the LME regulations. Those rules allow warehouses to release only a tiny fraction of their inventories per day, much less than the metal that is regularly taken in for storage. The metal that sits in the warehouse generates lucrative rental income."

So normal businesses who rely on metals cannot get ahold of them unless Goldman's feels like selling them, either after collecting the proper amount of "rent" or seeing the price rise to their satisfaction?

"Madden estimates that the U.S. benchmark physical aluminum price is $20 to $40 a tonne higher because of the backlog at the Detroit warehouses. The physical price is currently around $2,800 per tonne."

No wonder China and India are surging ahead, where North American and EU  businesses can't get the raw materials they need until Goldman's and their peers think the profit they make is right.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 7:07:04 AM)

Wow, talk about misleading subject lines. They arent manipulating anything.




Musicmystery -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 7:10:14 AM)

It's customary to follow counterclaims with reasoned argument. It's also more effective.




FirstQuaker -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 7:16:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Wow, talk about misleading subject lines. They arent manipulating anything.


In your expert neo-liberal opinion, what are they doing then?

A bailed out multinational banking group buying up and hoarding necessary raw materials while charging storage fees and trickling the metal out when the price is right?

How do you style this conduct?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 7:31:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Wow, talk about misleading subject lines. They arent manipulating anything.


In your expert neo-liberal opinion, what are they doing then?

A bailed out multinational banking group buying up and hoarding necessary raw materials while charging storage fees and trickling the metal out when the price is right?

How do you style this conduct?



There is nothing to style. Their clients buy aluminum, they rent them the space to store it. When there is a sale from one client to another there is not need to transport and re-store it. They earn less than $40 a ton. The retail cost of that space is on the order of at least $8-$12 per ton per month, implying 3-5 months average holding period. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

When physical gold is bought the same thing happens.




FirstQuaker -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 7:41:25 AM)

You missed the part where they are the few commodity brokers of the aluminium.

"In a typical deal, a bank buys aluminum from a producer, agrees to sell it at some future point at a profit, and strikes a warehouse deal to store it cheaply for an extended time period."

and

""The belief is that they are focused on serving their shareholders; most of them being the banks ... We see our clients and contacts trying to avoid the LME as much as possible now," said Jorge Vazquez, Managing Director of the Aluminum Intelligence Unit at HARBOR Commodity Research. That concern is growing. Critics of the exchange point to a potential problem with zinc supply though New Orleans, where inventories now account for 61 percent of total LME-registered stocks. Most of the warehouses in New Orleans are owned by Goldman and Glencore. Metal industry sources believe regulators should take a closer look at the possible conflict of interest that arises when trading houses also own the warehouses. "If the whole thrust of regulation and regulatory reform is increased transparency and open and above board operations, letting banks own warehouses seems to run entirely counter to that," said Frances Hudson, global thematic strategist at Standard Life Investments said."


Kinda like the towing company being owned by the local constable.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 7:45:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

You missed the part where they are the few commodity brokers of the aluminium.


I didnt miss it, its irrelevant. Why do you think there are so few? Because the margins arent worth it.




FirstQuaker -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 7:49:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

You missed the part where they are the few commodity brokers of the aluminium.


I didnt miss it, its irrelevant. Why do you think there are so few? Because the margins arent worth it.


So you claim there is no profit in being a commodities broker and Goldman and others do it as some sort of charity work?




pahunkboy -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/28/2011 8:00:26 AM)

Yeah-  Goldman is so corrupt-  they should have their corporate charter pulled.  They are leaches and welfare bums. 




Edwynn -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/29/2011 3:22:50 PM)


~FR~

It's all legal, and people like wilbe keep voting these people into office so that it remains legal to rape and pillage.







willbeurdaddy -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/29/2011 3:29:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

You missed the part where they are the few commodity brokers of the aluminium.


I didnt miss it, its irrelevant. Why do you think there are so few? Because the margins arent worth it.


So you claim there is no profit in being a commodities broker and Goldman and others do it as some sort of charity work?



No, I didnt claim that. Any other questions?




Edwynn -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/29/2011 3:29:10 PM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

You missed the part where they are the few commodity brokers of the aluminium.


I didnt miss it, its irrelevant. Why do you think there are so few? Because the margins arent worth it.



But somehow the margins that have not been worth it for the last 150 years are now all of a sudden worth it just because Goldman shows up with this new scam.

How did humanity survive before this?







Edwynn -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/29/2011 5:22:28 PM)


The housing industry somehow survived before you voted in the twits that somehow felt the need to bring in collateralized debt obligations with no oversight whatsoever to 'save' a housing industry that had been in place for centuries.


Economics is about allocation of resources for benefit of overall society.

The latest ten years in the US have been as far way from that as possible.







MrRodgers -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/29/2011 5:52:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Wow, talk about misleading subject lines. They arent manipulating anything.


In your expert neo-liberal opinion, what are they doing then?

A bailed out multinational banking group buying up and hoarding necessary raw materials while charging storage fees and trickling the metal out when the price is right?

How do you style this conduct?



There is nothing to style. Their clients buy aluminum, they rent them the space to store it. When there is a sale from one client to another there is not need to transport and re-store it. They earn less than $40 a ton. The retail cost of that space is on the order of at least $8-$12 per ton per month, implying 3-5 months average holding period. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

When physical gold is bought the same thing happens.

Well typically we get over-hype and overwrought. All that has been asked is for regulators to take a look. It isn't rocket surgery. If they are buying and hoarding alum. to the point i.e., substantially over the average share, (dominant share) it takes longer to make delivery and costs more when finally doing so...then there may be a case for profiting from what's called (Sherman laws) 'restraint of trade.'

If they do not dominate and there are other sources competitively available and make delivery, then no there may be no case.

Even once way back in 73, Exxon was sued over hoarding 11 million gals. of gas in their no. Va. tank farm during and after the oil embargo. They lost, didn't appeal, they paid a fine, the porperty was discovered to have suffered from a gas leak. So the 'farm' was torn down, the land cleaned up and every penny and much more was realized when you know of course, they made it all into dozens of McMansions.





erieangel -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/29/2011 9:25:32 PM)

This is an anti-trust issue. Yet another regulation that the republicans have said is not needed because the market will "self correct". The problem with that philosophy is the as the problem with Marxism--both neglect to factor in the innate greed of the human race.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/29/2011 10:04:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

This is an anti-trust issue. Yet another regulation that the republicans have said is not needed because the market will "self correct". The problem with that philosophy is the as the problem with Marxism--both neglect to factor in the innate greed of the human race.


If you think government oversight of the markets has been a resounding success and better than what the market itself could have done, then the names Frank, Dodd, Waters and Raines must have been dropped from your vocabulary. [:D]




Edwynn -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/30/2011 3:52:58 AM)




No question that Frank, Dodd, Schumer (don't know how you could have missed that one) and others have done no good purpose, but it's because of their prior sucking up to the financial industry, certainly not because of any heavy-handedness. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and the Commodity Futures Trading Act took a boatload of things off the table from any congressional or regulatory oversight whatsoever, sorry if you missed that.

The FTC and the Justice Department's anti-trust division snoring loudly when the banks kept merging also apparently escaped your notice, as did the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency's memo to all 50 states that any attempt at protecting their own citizens in the way of anti-predatory lending laws were invalid if already in place, and should not be attempted otherwise.

Of course, who want's any regulation at all, just because we're talking about the most fundamental element of an economy, and people's savings and pensions? Three trillion dollars cost (at the most conservative estimation) and 8 million jobs lost, thousands of homes foreclosed by way of fraud, Lehman, Bear Stearns, and Merryl Lynch being sucked down a drain hole, AIG and Goldman taking an industrial vacuum to the US treasury, more than a decade of hundreds of lawsuits (in courts staffed at taxpayer cost) to come from this fiasco, proves the validity of this "self-regulation" thing, doesn't it?


Oh, and lets not forget the old people in California that died from heat related issues when Enron options traders forced Cali power plants to shut down in the middle of summer to increase the rates in that state. Of course none of them are in jail for manslaughter or negligent homicide ... they work at oil companies and oil hedge firms now. And the Enron employees other than the traders lost all their pension due to then CFTC chair Wendy Gramm-encouraged accounting fraud.

Deregulation at it's finest.









erieangel -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/30/2011 5:40:01 AM)

Thanks for replying to willbeur, Edwynn. I didn't know all of that.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/30/2011 8:24:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

..., as did the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency's memo to all 50 states that any attempt at protecting their own citizens in the way of anti-predatory lending laws were invalid if already in place, and should not be attempted otherwise.

Could you source this, please?

Firm




xssve -> RE: Goldman Commodity Manipulation. (7/30/2011 8:29:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Wow, talk about misleading subject lines. They aren't manipulating anything.
creating an artificial supply bottleneck by hoarding, is by definition, monopolistic practice, a form of price fixing, and it's very much a form of market manipulation. That's not capitalism, it's closer to Merchantilism.




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