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Icarys -> Freedom to Fascism (7/25/2011 8:59:36 PM)

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173



lockedaway -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/25/2011 10:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173



Great post!!  Not too many liberals on this board will understand it or even watch the video for that matter.  But the creation of the Federal Reserve has been attacked by Rand Paul and Steve Lonegan of New Jersey as, perhaps, the greatest threat to individual liberty in the U.S. 

Here is where I disagree with your post.  Fascism was a creation of Mussolini.  In and of itself, it isn't a political doctrine, rather it is a concomitant of circumstances central to a political doctrine.  The political doctrine is socialism.  The essential concomitants are rabid nationalism and secularism.  Your post says "Freedom to Fascism" and I think you are mistaken.  I think it is more accurate to say "Freedom to Socialism".  What we lack in this country is pervasive secularism, which, however, is on the rise I will admit.  We also lack rabid nationalism.  People in this country have been trained to hate it because of "slavery" or "corporate greed" or "unequal opportunity" (for this group or that group) or Japanese internment during WWII or genocide to the Indians or whatever.  The fact is that you do not have rabid nationalism in the U.S.A. So while you certainly have burgeoning socialism, you do not have any of the other attendant ingredients to foment fascism.

Just some random thoughts off the top of my head, take them for what they are worth.



MrRodgers -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/25/2011 10:59:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173


I've seen this before and do believe it. Some say it goes back to 1695 and the formation of the Bank of England. Can't overlook any of the banker's power particularly when a Ben Franklin told the the press that the big reason colonial aristocracy revolted was that the crown would not allow America its own 'free and honest' money system.



rulemylife -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/25/2011 11:13:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173



I found this so ridiculous that I had to pass on my thoughts to you.

Aside from all the conspiracy nonsense, let me ask you how a society functions without a source of revenue?

How do the things you use everyday magically get paid for?



MrRodgers -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/25/2011 11:39:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173



Great post!!  Not too many liberals on this board will understand it or even watch the video for that matter.  But the creation of the Federal Reserve has been attacked by Rand Paul and Steve Lonegan of New Jersey as, perhaps, the greatest threat to individual liberty in the U.S. 

Here is where I disagree with your post.  Fascism was a creation of Mussolini.  In and of itself, it isn't a political doctrine, rather it is a concomitant of circumstances central to a political doctrine.  The political doctrine is socialism.  The essential concomitants are rabid nationalism and secularism.  Your post says "Freedom to Fascism" and I think you are mistaken.  I think it is more accurate to say "Freedom to Socialism".  What we lack in this country is pervasive secularism, which, however, is on the rise I will admit.  We also lack rabid nationalism.  People in this country have been trained to hate it because of "slavery" or "corporate greed" or "unequal opportunity" (for this group or that group) or Japanese internment during WWII or genocide to the Indians or whatever.  The fact is that you do not have rabid nationalism in the U.S.A. So while you certainly have burgeoning socialism, you do not have any of the other attendant ingredients to foment fascism.

Just some random thoughts off the top of my head, take them for what they are worth.

Of course you are completely wrong.

Socialism is defined as the govt. ownership of the means of production...period.

Fascism is the political equivalent of removing all politics as a practice or science from society, i.e., perpetual one-party rule. A fascist state is a police state where everything is owned by the govt. and its cronies, including you. How one gets there doesn't change that.

In fact it was Mussolini himself who informed the world of his newly defined fascism, as a marriage of govt. and the capitalist and that capitalist fascism is the natural order of society relieving the citizens of making any decisions.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/25/2011 11:39:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173



I found this so ridiculous that I had to pass on my thoughts to you.

Aside from all the conspiracy nonsense, let me ask you how a society functions without a source of revenue?

How do the things you use everyday magically get paid for?


I've watched it years ago, I believe it just pertains to the income tax, as opposed to all taxation. You could still tax even without an income tax. You could do sales taxes, tariffs, or charge more fees, or any number of methods. The income tax is wholly unnecessary, IMO. You can tax in other ways.



MrRodgers -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/25/2011 11:47:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173



I found this so ridiculous that I had to pass on my thoughts to you.

Aside from all the conspiracy nonsense, let me ask you how a society functions without a source of revenue?

How do the things you use everyday magically get paid for?


Ridiculous...nonsense ? Why don't you point all of that out for us ? BTW, as for 'paying for things' this country did just fine for about 120 years until 1913, the federal banks, 16th amend. and the income tax on labor. Estimates researched have found arguably 17% inflation total over a century...1500% since.

Look up what the founding fathers had to say about a federal banking system and the power of the currency and the corporation.



imperatrixx -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 1:59:34 AM)

Yeah, but I kind of like all the things we've gotten since 1913. Like airports, or air conditioning at the DMV. I mean I guess we could cut spending back to those 1913 levels but that would leave Alaska and Hawaii kind of screwed, since their percentage of the budget would probably be like zero.



Icarys -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 6:45:06 AM)

quote:

Yeah, but I kind of like all the things we've gotten since 1913. Like airports, or air conditioning at the DMV. I mean I guess we could cut spending back to those 1913 levels but that would leave Alaska and Hawaii kind of screwed, since their percentage of the budget would probably be like zero.

For me, it's not just about the tax itself but the possibility it isn't legal and they all know it. The Supreme Court ruled it so and the IRS and the lower courts are ignoring it. If that is true, that's a serious attack on our system and way of life.

Now I already do without a great deal of what the Federal Income tax funds.

Who knows exactly what the income tax pays for? Anyone?



lockedaway -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 7:03:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173



Great post!!  Not too many liberals on this board will understand it or even watch the video for that matter.  But the creation of the Federal Reserve has been attacked by Rand Paul and Steve Lonegan of New Jersey as, perhaps, the greatest threat to individual liberty in the U.S. 

Here is where I disagree with your post.  Fascism was a creation of Mussolini.  In and of itself, it isn't a political doctrine, rather it is a concomitant of circumstances central to a political doctrine.  The political doctrine is socialism.  The essential concomitants are rabid nationalism and secularism.  Your post says "Freedom to Fascism" and I think you are mistaken.  I think it is more accurate to say "Freedom to Socialism".  What we lack in this country is pervasive secularism, which, however, is on the rise I will admit.  We also lack rabid nationalism.  People in this country have been trained to hate it because of "slavery" or "corporate greed" or "unequal opportunity" (for this group or that group) or Japanese internment during WWII or genocide to the Indians or whatever.  The fact is that you do not have rabid nationalism in the U.S.A. So while you certainly have burgeoning socialism, you do not have any of the other attendant ingredients to foment fascism.

Just some random thoughts off the top of my head, take them for what they are worth.

Of course you are completely wrong.

Socialism is defined as the govt. ownership of the means of production...period.

Fascism is the political equivalent of removing all politics as a practice or science from society, i.e., perpetual one-party rule. A fascist state is a police state where everything is owned by the govt. and its cronies, including you. How one gets there doesn't change that.

In fact it was Mussolini himself who informed the world of his newly defined fascism, as a marriage of govt. and the capitalist and that capitalist fascism is the natural order of society relieving the citizens of making any decisions.



Nooooooo...YOU are entirely wrong.  Here is a book for you to read...really...a great book.  It is called "Liberal Fascism"  Fascism is not a political theory on its own.  I know you can't grasp that concept.  Do you think the first fascist countries were Italy and Germany in the 1920 and '30s?  Here is a news flash for you, France was a fascist country during the French Revolution.  That you have one person that is often the figure head does not take away from the secularism of the country (both France and Germany during those respective periods eschewed God and had "Blood and Soil" beliefs that underpinned their nationalism) or a rabid sense nationalism.  The U.S. will never be a fascist country and to suggest otherwise reveals that you don't know ANYTHING about fascism.

So that we can now plumb the depths of your knowledge, here is a question for you.  Tell me where fascism has existed where socialism was not the political base for the country.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 9:58:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Of course you are completely wrong.

Socialism is defined as the govt. ownership of the means of production...period.

Fascism is the political equivalent of removing all politics as a practice or science from society, i.e., perpetual one-party rule. A fascist state is a police state where everything is owned by the govt. and its cronies, including you. How one gets there doesn't change that.

So .. the only difference between "Communism" and "Fascism" is that Fascist have some cronies along for the ride?

Firm



Real0ne -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 10:41:50 AM)

fr

america does not operate in a pure anything.

as far as I am concerned arguing from that postition creates red herrings that lead to no where productive.

For most of the "isms" with regard to america one could say fascist in color as there are certain parts that are infact fascist, likewise communist in other parts.

In some cases could be thought of as good government. 

The thrust of the freedom to fascism is basically the take over of this country by use of the present monetary system as was planned as long as 150+ years ago.

Eminent domain proves the point giving the presumed sovereigns (without authorization), the power of a king and those who control them an ownership interest in the country hence control over and above the people. (that never really had control in the first place).

Regardless of how one wants to strike that match it always comes back to creating a nation under peonage.

Amschel Rothschild would be proud to see his plan based on hum greed worked so elequently.



joether -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 11:06:32 AM)

The 16th Amendment, as the video FAILS to mention, was ratified by fourty-two of the forty-eight states. Three opposed it and three just couldnt make up their minds on it. I guess since the conservatives fail at reality, they must think Alaska and Hawaii should get a vote before its considered 'ok'.

The second part is the narration accuses "Those Evil Bankers" of bribing Congress to set up the Federal Reserve. Of course if your going to accuse someone of a serious crime like that, one would expect some REAL, INDEPTH, and ACCURATE..........EVIDENCE! None was given. Is that how America works? That we can attack others with serious crimes without an ounce of real evidence or a living witness to support it? If that's the case, then I say round up all the Tea Party idiots and charge 'em with treason! Nice the narration passes judgetment without the defense allowed a word, or that of an impartial judge put in place by our elected officals whom 'We the People' elected to represent us. If that's the case, not only are those Tea Party guys guilty but the penalty is is....death. Anyone that supports this video's 'understanding' of justice or the American system of courts, wouldn't be able to lift a finger in protest against this action as well.

Third, this video feels like one of those 'anti-Clinate Change' videos that conservatives push forth. It tries to give 'some science' mixed with 'tinfoil hat' conspiracy screwball-ish-ness. Anyone without a decent background in science simply doesnt know how badly they've been lied to, and follow the narration that Climate Change is just some 'liberal' agenda thought up to 'tax us with science!'. Some of these videos bring forth 'scientists' who 'go on record' in saying Climate Change is false and misleading. What the video's never bother to mention (can't imagine why), is that the person quoted was either A) misquoted B) Speaking on something in scientific terms not layman terms, or C) has already been discredited by the scientific community. Funny that we have so many anti-climate change folks on these very boards whom we regularly have to debunk their latest 'retarded theory'. Because if they took the time to RESEARCH the garbage they were posting, they might have found it was debunked in another thread eight months previously and/or debunked through a simple online search.

Finally, the only people we see trying to remove this tax, are the same silly fools that dont stop and think things through to their logical conclusions. The Income Tax is structured (mostly) so that the poor are not hammered in taxes. Since the poor must buy virtually everything 'off the shelf' because they lack the knowledge, location, raw materials, or labor to perform what ever task, issue, or food situation that arises. The middle class fairs a bit better. In the days before even the Clinton Administration, the Income Tax was focussed more on the rich paying the bulk of the taxes rather than the poor. This also helped the middle class grow over the decades. Now, its largely the middle class paying for taxes, as it slips 'year after year' into the 'poor' grouping. While the rich, just get richer as time progresses.

If doing your income taxes is so tough, it might be because you havent used that portion of your brain in a year. You know, the one that handles 'thinking for yourself'?



Icarys -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 11:12:55 AM)

It's easy to dismiss a thing if you deny yourself exposure to it. I ask that, those who haven't seen the movie, watch the entire thing.

If nothing else, it's a really interesting documentary. I surely don't advocate for the side of anyone not paying their taxes. As was mentioned in the movie... To go against a government branch that would knowingly do something illegal and expect it to care about throwing you in jail over it, well, would be silly.



Icarys -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 11:15:31 AM)

quote:

The 16th Amendment, as the video FAILS to mention, was ratified by fourty-two of the forty-eight states. Three opposed it and three just couldnt make up their minds on it. I guess since the conservatives fail at reality, they must think Alaska and Hawaii should get a vote before its considered 'ok'.

Can you produce proof? $50,000 is still available if so lol. Seriously though, the vid says different, would you mind backing up your claims as well?



Real0ne -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 11:19:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The 16th Amendment, as the video FAILS to mention, was ratified by fourty-two of the forty-eight states. Three opposed it and three just couldnt make up their minds on it. I guess since the conservatives fail at reality, they must think Alaska and Hawaii should get a vote before its considered 'ok'.

The second part is the narration accuses "Those Evil Bankers" of bribing Congress to set up the Federal Reserve. Of course if your going to accuse someone of a serious crime like that, one would expect some REAL, INDEPTH, and ACCURATE..........EVIDENCE! None was given. Is that how America works? That we can attack others with serious crimes without an ounce of real evidence or a living witness to support it? If that's the case, then I say round up all the Tea Party idiots and charge 'em with treason! Nice the narration passes judgetment without the defense allowed a word, or that of an impartial judge put in place by our elected officals whom 'We the People' elected to represent us. If that's the case, not only are those Tea Party guys guilty but the penalty is is....death. Anyone that supports this video's 'understanding' of justice or the American system of courts, wouldn't be able to lift a finger in protest against this action as well.

Third, this video feels like one of those 'anti-Clinate Change' videos that conservatives push forth. It tries to give 'some science' mixed with 'tinfoil hat' conspiracy screwball-ish-ness. Anyone without a decent background in science simply doesnt know how badly they've been lied to, and follow the narration that Climate Change is just some 'liberal' agenda thought up to 'tax us with science!'. Some of these videos bring forth 'scientists' who 'go on record' in saying Climate Change is false and misleading. What the video's never bother to mention (can't imagine why), is that the person quoted was either A) misquoted B) Speaking on something in scientific terms not layman terms, or C) has already been discredited by the scientific community. Funny that we have so many anti-climate change folks on these very boards whom we regularly have to debunk their latest 'retarded theory'. Because if they took the time to RESEARCH the garbage they were posting, they might have found it was debunked in another thread eight months previously and/or debunked through a simple online search.

Finally, the only people we see trying to remove this tax, are the same silly fools that dont stop and think things through to their logical conclusions. The Income Tax is structured (mostly) so that the poor are not hammered in taxes. Since the poor must buy virtually everything 'off the shelf' because they lack the knowledge, location, raw materials, or labor to perform what ever task, issue, or food situation that arises. The middle class fairs a bit better. In the days before even the Clinton Administration, the Income Tax was focussed more on the rich paying the bulk of the taxes rather than the poor. This also helped the middle class grow over the decades. Now, its largely the middle class paying for taxes, as it slips 'year after year' into the 'poor' grouping. While the rich, just get richer as time progresses.

If doing your income taxes is so tough, it might be because you havent used that portion of your brain in a year. You know, the one that handles 'thinking for yourself'?



quote:

We the People' elected to represent us


well they did not!

show me where the people voted to pay federal income tax.

This shit is supposed to percolate uphill but it did not, the states cannot represent a non-cause, they can however "present" it, and of course that is despotism and tyranny! 

further congress was not granted the authority to change the government at will. 

that is what they do in constitutional monarchies.

oh wait  LOL



MrRodgers -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 12:09:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Of course you are completely wrong.

Socialism is defined as the govt. ownership of the means of production...period.

Fascism is the political equivalent of removing all politics as a practice or science from society, i.e., perpetual one-party rule. A fascist state is a police state where everything is owned by the govt. and its cronies, including you. How one gets there doesn't change that.

So .. the only difference between "Communism" and "Fascism" is that Fascist have some cronies along for the ride?

Firm


Seeing as how the word fascism was created by Mussolini, it is only a matter of subjective opinion to label anything prior to his regime in Italy...as any variety of it...no matter how any govt. of the sort was derrived. A monarchy was despotism...not fascism. The monarch is a despot, fascism has a dictator.

Neither Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy were socialist govts. In fact as a means of comparison, both Italy and Germany at the time were capitalist fascist regimes as ownership of the means of production were in fact stolen from the people similar to what Russia has gone through since the fall of the Soviet Union. Ownership went to Nazi and Italian political leaders (cronies) and the rest is history.

Mussolini: “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

In 1881, Pope Leo XIII commissioned theologians and social thinkers to study corporatism and provide a definition for it. In 1884 in Freiburg, the commission declared that corporatism was a "system of social organization that has at its base the grouping of men according to the community of their natural interests and social functions, and as true and proper organs of the state they direct and coordinate labor and capital in matters of common interest."

Sure it is and sure they do. Too bad that hasn't worked out hey.

There has never been a socialist govt. as the word is defined where the govt. and truly meaning the people... entirely own ALL of the means of productions.

For example, France (govt.) owns 15% of Renault and some call that socialism. Not really, in that ownership is so small as to leave 85% of the ownership to the market.

Socialism as a political goal and the goal of a partnership between govt. and the market much like all of those deals we see now. The difference is merely in the distribution of profits. In the US, that is entirely private...socialism some public.

Communism is the govt. owning essentially everything including the person where the means of production is collectively owned and economic direction similar to fascism...is centrally controlled by govt. and not the marketplace. Communism has it cronies in higher offices of the party. If you are not a 'party member' you only exist as a unit of labor. Communism uses fascism to control the collectivization.



Icarys -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 12:13:42 PM)

Can we talk about the tax? [:D]

Am I on moderation or not? [:D]



joether -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 12:23:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

We the People' elected to represent us


well they did not!

show me where the people voted to pay federal income tax.


Are you a total fucking moron, RO? The people, E-L-E-C-T-E-D people at the V-O-T-I-N-G booth which people they wanted in public office. Those elected officals than V-O-T-E-D on the bill. See, in the United States of America, our forum of goverment is a 'Democratic Republic' in that 'We the People' elected certain people to represent us towards the other states that make up the Union in dealing with 'day to day' operations and generally important stuff. If we dont like how they did, we electe someone else. An if we REALLY dont like something, we ask our representative to remove it. However, our country is not a dictatorship (like many conservatives seem to think it is), and that representative might have to make alliances with others along with a comprise to get what you, the individual citizen, want.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealOne
This shit is supposed to percolate uphill but it did not, the states cannot represent a non-cause, they can however "present" it, and of course that is despotism and tyranny! 


Making the United States of America one of the best places to live on the planet, NOT, something we should strive to obtain and keep active? Apparently, it costs more than 'blood, sweat, and tears, but also money to achieve. If you have a problem with this, RO, please, by all means, renounce your citizenship and than....GET THE FARK OUT OF MY COUNTRY!

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealOne
further congress was not granted the authority to change the government at will. 


Dear God, WHY are idiots like.....THIS.....allowed to exist? Do we have to explain something you should have learned from the 3rd grade, RO?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 12:24:19 PM)

MrRodgers,

We could get into a political philosophy argument and discussion about a lot of that (I'm pretty well-armed on the subject).

But, really, the only differences between Fascism and Communism as practiced in the real world is the path and justification to totalitarianism.  They easily slip back and forth between doing the same things - just for "different reasons".

The real differences between modern governments is simple: the degree of freedom that the average citizen has.

You can break it down a lot of different ways: economic freedom, freedom from want, freedom from from government interference, etc, but I think all governments can be placed somewhere along a scale between individual freedom and government control (yes, this is simplified, but gets closer to the mark than a lot of the psycho-ideologue-babel that I read everywhere).

All else is interesting, worthy of discussion sometimes, but such discussions can often be confusing and disguise the primary issue.

Firm



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