RE: Freedom to Fascism (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 12:40:54 PM)

There's hippie...this is probably where he blasts the messenger directly or indirectly. [:D]




Moonhead -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 12:48:40 PM)

FR:

I wonder if somebody should tell Icarys his posts aren't actually showing while he's suspended?




MrRodgers -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 1:39:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

MrRodgers,

We could get into a political philosophy argument and discussion about a lot of that (I'm pretty well-armed on the subject).

But, really, the only differences between Fascism and Communism as practiced in the real world is the path and justification to totalitarianism.  They easily slip back and forth between doing the same things - just for "different reasons".

The real differences between modern governments is simple: the degree of freedom that the average citizen has.

You can break it down a lot of different ways: economic freedom, freedom from want, freedom from from government interference, etc, but I think all governments can be placed somewhere along a scale between individual freedom and government control (yes, this is simplified, but gets closer to the mark than a lot of the psycho-ideologue-babel that I read everywhere).

All else is interesting, worthy of discussion sometimes, but such discussions can often be confusing and disguise the primary issue.

Firm


Sure, I can see how come modern times and the relative youth of such systems, meanings have become malleable. After all, in a real free market, wall street, most of the US auto industry among others...would be essentially gone. In a free market, there is no such thing as 'too big to fail.'

For me the big difference is that under both our system of a mixed economy and under a socialism...private contracts, property and wealth are all still the mainstay of civil society.

Under other systems despotic or fascist...we see no such thing as much of anything private, except as they say...only your thoughts. Ancient Greece may have been the most opposably formed govt. both a developing democracy but within the culture without universal civil rights but one of mandatory military service. The Greek man became a ward of the state but still had a vote and could own slaves...who couldn't own anything or vote and was thus a non-person.





MrRodgers -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 1:42:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

Yeah, but I kind of like all the things we've gotten since 1913. Like airports, or air conditioning at the DMV. I mean I guess we could cut spending back to those 1913 levels but that would leave Alaska and Hawaii kind of screwed, since their percentage of the budget would probably be like zero.

Meaningless...we would have had all of that anyway.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 1:59:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173


In reference to the video:

July 31, 2006
Facts Refute Filmmaker’s Assertions on Income Tax in ‘America’
By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

As far as the 16th amendment ...

I think there were irregularities in it's passage by the States, but in the end it was certified, and has a history of being the law, and we are way past changing it by that route.

Finally, I do think that the passage of the 16th was one of the two major blows to freedom in the US.

Firm




Icarys -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 2:24:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173


In reference to the video:

July 31, 2006
Facts Refute Filmmaker’s Assertions on Income Tax in ‘America’
By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

As far as the 16th amendment ...

I think there were irregularities in it's passage by the States, but in the end it was certified, and has a history of being the law, and we are way past changing it by that route.

Finally, I do think that the passage of the 16th was one of the two major blows to freedom in the US.

Firm


I read that and it fails to mention a vast majority of the other claims in the movie that are extremely important. Sounds like a hatchet job to me.

I'm personally on the fence here because I don't have enough info either way as to the validity of both sides. Sounds pretty convincing based on how they present it.

I know this isn't the NYT but take a look wouldya? It makes some very interesting point in all of this.

http://www.democracyisnotfreedom.com/nyt_v_russo_01.asp

I mean seriously, if an ex-IRS commissioner can't site a specific law that states where we have to and cry's "Unprepared" when he knew ahead of time..cmon. Sounds fishy to me.




Real0ne -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 2:28:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:

I wonder if somebody should tell Icarys his posts aren't actually showing while he's suspended?


they just wait till the timer tiks down no?  That will really fuck up the thread if they are not shown at all.





Real0ne -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 2:38:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I found this pretty interesting so I thought I'd pass it on to others who might not have seen it. The guy makes a pretty compelling argument, not to mention the court ruling in favor of Mr. Harrell's Income Tax case, which he WON! WTH?!?![:D]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173


In reference to the video:

July 31, 2006
Facts Refute Filmmaker’s Assertions on Income Tax in ‘America’
By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

As far as the 16th amendment ...

I think there were irregularities in it's passage by the States, but in the end it was certified, and has a history of being the law, and we are way past changing it by that route.

Finally, I do think that the passage of the 16th was one of the two major blows to freedom in the US.

Firm



Firm they have to follow the parliamentary rules.  They cant just throw the rule book to the wind (as they have), as that is complete anarchy, despotism and tryanny.

Passing fucking bills without even reading them?

Passing amendments to the constitution on holidays?

WTF

Even in England they E----States were protected by the king by contract until the norman conquest which forced people to become subjects.

Each estate had its own court system.  The E was dropped when they came to america and now you only hear of the word "State" instead of estate.

The estate holding determined your "status" and still does today, and little does anyone realize the road back to your original status has been cut off by these amendments and the bankruptcy of 33.

In other words they set us up to be in a state of permanent peonage!

Thank you supreme court, thank you congress, you corrupt slime of the earth mutha fuckas.

If you look you will find it, its not hidden, it is however the highest order deception and treason against the people.




mnottertail -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 2:45:04 PM)

Please show me where in the 'parliamentary' rules (which they are not) it says, each congressman and senator must read the bill.

Show me where it says that they cannot pass an amendment on a holiday.

Yeah, and everything else is wrong too. 




Real0ne -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 2:54:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Please show me where in the 'parliamentary' rules (which they are not) it says, each congressman and senator must read the bill.

Show me where it says that they cannot pass an amendment on a holiday.

Yeah, and everything else is wrong too. 


just proved you do not know what I am talking about LMAO nice!




mnottertail -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 2:57:29 PM)

NO I proved that you have no idea what you are talking about.




Real0ne -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/26/2011 3:14:13 PM)

if you knew what I was talking about you never would have asked the question LOL




mnottertail -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 6:00:35 AM)

I never asked you a question, never have, anything that looks like a question is rhetorical, since you aint got any answers.




Owner59 -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 7:57:25 AM)

Lonegan: ""We cannot allow the pen to be mightier than the sword."

Nutter....


In 2006, Lonegan asked the outdoor advertising company, CBS Outdoor, to remove a McDonald’s advertisement in Spanish from a local billboard. The company refused.[18] Without apparent legal remedy, Lonegan filed papers for a public referendum in Bogota on making English the official language for the municipality. The public question was rejected by the County Clerk’s office, which is partly responsible for officiating elections, on legal advice that it violated state and federal law.[19]


And bigotted...

The next year, Lonegan hired two illegal aliens, paying them each $80 to put together political signs for Americans for Prosperity. Lonegan left the men to do the work at a property he owned in town, where they were picked up by police after a neighbor spotted them. Lonegan said the men had told him they had legal documentation and later argued that local police, angered by tough labor negotiations with his office, had targeted him.[20]

A crook and a cheat and a major shameless hypocrite.

On January 19, 2008, Lonegan and a local radio talk show host were arrested by New Jersey State Police troopers for trespassing at a town hall meeting scheduled by Gov. Corzine at a high school in Middle Township, New Jersey.[21] Lonegan and the radio host were standing on the school's lawn protesting when police and school officials asked them to move to a designated protest area and remove a sign they were holding. Police arrested them when they refused. School officials later apologized and police dropped the charges.



.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Lonegan


Not sure mentioning THAT guy`s name`ll get anyone cridibilty,accept maybe with nutter-cons.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 9:06:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

MrRodgers,

We could get into a political philosophy argument and discussion about a lot of that (I'm pretty well-armed on the subject).

But, really, the only differences between Fascism and Communism as practiced in the real world is the path and justification to totalitarianism.  They easily slip back and forth between doing the same things - just for "different reasons".

The real differences between modern governments is simple: the degree of freedom that the average citizen has.

You can break it down a lot of different ways: economic freedom, freedom from want, freedom from from government interference, etc, but I think all governments can be placed somewhere along a scale between individual freedom and government control (yes, this is simplified, but gets closer to the mark than a lot of the psycho-ideologue-babel that I read everywhere).

All else is interesting, worthy of discussion sometimes, but such discussions can often be confusing and disguise the primary issue.

Firm



^^^^ This

Political ideologies are not a line from left to right, they are a circle, and at the top of the circle is Facism. You can get there clockwise (from the "left") or counterclockwise from the "right".




FirmhandKY -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 9:38:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Political ideologies are not a line from left to right, they are a circle, and at the top of the circle is Facism. You can get there clockwise (from the "left") or counterclockwise from the "right".

Sssshhhhh!

Don't tell tweakabelle ... only the right can be "Fascist" dontcha know ... [;)]

Firm




Musicmystery -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 9:42:48 AM)

Fascism is anti-anarchist, anti-communist, anti-conservative, anti-democratic, anti-individualist, anti-liberal, anti-parliamentary, anti-bourgeois, and anti-proletarian.[11] It entails a distinctive type of anti-capitalism and is typically, with a few exceptions, anti-clerical.[12][13] Fascism rejects the concepts of egalitarianism, materialism, and rationalism in favour of action, discipline, hierarchy, spirit, and will.[14] In economics, fascists oppose liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based movements.[15] Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes resolving economic class conflict to secure national solidarity.[16] They support a regulated, multi-class, integrated national economic system.[17] Fascist economics supports the existence of private property, the existence of a market economy, and the use of the profit motive.[18]

11 ^ Walter Laqueur. Fascism - a reader's guide: analyses, interpretations, bibliography. Berkeley and Los Angeles, California, USA: University of California Press, 1976. pp. 16-17.
12 ^ Walter Laqueur. Fascism - a reader's guide: analyses, interpretations, bibliography. Berkeley and Los Angeles, California, USA: University of California Press, 1976. p. 16.
13 ^ Payne, Stanley, A History of Fascism: 1914–45, pp. 490, 518, 1995 University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN 299148742
14 ^ Frank Bealey, Allan G. Johnson. The Blackwell dictionary of political science: a user's guide to its terms. 2nd edition. Malden, Massachusetts, USA: Blackwell Publishers, 2000. p. 129.
15 ^ Walter Laqueur, Walter. Fascism: A Readers' Guide : Analysis, Interpretations, Bibliography. Berkeley and Los Angeles, California, USA: University of California Press, 1976 (first edition, 1978 (paperback edition). p. 338.
16 ^ Griffin, Roger. The Nature of Fascism. New York, New York, USA: St. Martins Press, 1991. pp. 222–223.
17 ^ Stanley G. Payne. Fascism: Comparison and Definition. Madison, Wisconson, USA: University of Wisconsin Press, 1980. p. 7.
18 ^ Zeev Sternhell, Mario Sznajder, Maia Ashéri. The birth of fascist ideology: from cultural rebellion to political revolution. Princeton University Press, 1994. p. 162.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 10:00:12 AM)

Notice the "Fascist" in quotes, and reference my comments in the other thread.

Firm




Musicmystery -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 10:01:01 AM)

Ain't semantics grand.




philosophy -> RE: Freedom to Fascism (7/27/2011 12:31:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



Political ideologies are not a line from left to right, they are a circle, and at the top of the circle is Facism. You can get there clockwise (from the "left") or counterclockwise from the "right".


Sort of true, from the pov of a citizen living in such regimes.

However, there are a couple of differences between the 'left' route to fascism and the 'right' route to fascism.

The former ends up in a situation where everything is owned by the state. The latter in a situation where eveything is owned by friends of the state.

I wholly agree that, from the point of view of an ordinary Joe or Josephine, there's very little difference. But there are enough differences between the two entities that they are not wholly equivilant.

I see the political spectrum more like a U shape where the tops of the two ends are very, very close......but not actually touching.




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