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Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themse... - 6/22/2011 1:16:43 AM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		This is a discussion that a friend started on Fetlife, due to a woman posting a picture of herself following fire play gone wrong. She received 2nd degree partial thickness burns over 20% of her body. In her own words:

"The short story, I was bottoming in a fire scene with the man who was previously my Master. We've done scenes with fire cupping before but I had no idea he was doing it wrong. Rather than swab the cup with rubbing alcohol, he poured it in and lit it on fire. Because there was too much fuel, the cup wouldn't create suction on my back and it spilled. I was in subspace due to a previous scene and felt the alcohol pool under my breasts but I didn't think to say anything. Even though he wiped off my back with a towel, there was still too much fuel present and the unthinkable happened when the open flame ignited all the alcohol on my back and my side and my breasts. I'll never forget that night in the dungeon. He helped me heal and we both spoke at bdsm events when safety was the topic. Today I am a top and I have also become involved with The Phoenix Society, which is for burn survivors."

So just what are the responsibilities of the bottoms in a scene? This woman says that she really didn't know much about safety for this particular scene & because she & her partner that night had done this before, she trusted him. She has learned how very wrong she was to do that. And now she goes around to groups with the top she was playing with & they give lectures on safety when scening.

Even though I only bottom for people who have great references & who I believe know how to hurt me without harming me, I've never taken on too much of the responsibility for learning about how to keep myself safe. I mean, I know that a top shouldn't be striking my kidneys & that sort of basic stuff. But that's about it. This has brought home to me the need for me to do my own research & make sure that I am communicating what I know to the top & stopping the scene if something isn't quite right.

What say you? Do you tend to abdicate responsibility when in a scene? Do you expect the top to do all the research & have all the information on what is safe & what isn't? Or do you do your own research also?

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 1:48:54 AM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4382
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Not having a lot of experience, I would say yes, that I have been guilty of abdicating responsibility to the top, primarily because I had not been aware of what particular play would be involved prior to different events. But you raise a good point. The bottom should be just as responsible for what goes on in the scene in terms of being aware of safety issues. I guess I've been fortunate in that I've played only with experienced Doms and tops who take safety seriously. I have attended some seminars as well and those have been very informative in terms of safe behaviours. What a horrible way to have to learn a lesson though. It's a very sobering tale to read.

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 2:18:34 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		It's me the stuff is going to be done to, so I feel I have a responsibility, to both Hanners and myself, to make sure I'm going to come out the other side of the scene in working order. Sure I trust Hanners, but that's because she's sensible and careful. She knows what she knows how to do and she knows what she doesn't know how to do.

There's a couple of things she's contemplated trying, and when we'd done some research, she decided that she would need to do a lot more learning before she went ahead with it. Knife play is one of those things. She's very good with a knife, but she isn't comfortable with her knowledge of anatomy to explore that particular kink. She wants to learn a lot more before she tries it. She came to this conclusion when we researched the issue, and learned all risks. While I trust her not to do something she doesn't really know how to do, its my responsibility to make sure she has as much information available to her as possible.

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 2:22:33 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I expect M to know what he's doing when we explore stuff......yep.

However bad that may seem, that's how it's been for years and years.

I think it's quite a big responsibility considering some of the things that we've done but I'm a willing idiot (owned person) and if I TRULY think I need to be better informed than him, or NEED to check out safety......then I'm not really likely to even go there...... which would also affect our relationship.

M's not a top, he's my owner and he doesn't do anything, even faintly extreme, in a cavelier manner.

He's got a LOT invested in the fact that I trust him without a second thought....One wrong move and years of trust would be washed away. I can't even begin to stress how important that is to him. And to me, to US!.

Despite all of that.... even with all our years of doing whacky things, things COULD go wrong...........that's the calculated risk we both take in the odd dodgy situation.

So, nope, M has all the responsibility of it and I have my own......... which generally involves me keeping VERY still :)

If some *other* person wanted to *do* something on/to me on the faintly extreme* scale...then oh yes.....I'd be clutching a clipboard with highlighted bullet points and checking 'em off.

agirl


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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 2:32:05 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

It's me the stuff is going to be done to, so I feel I have a responsibility, to both Hanners and myself, to make sure I'm going to come out the other side of the scene in working order. Sure I trust Hanners, but that's because she's sensible and careful. She knows what she knows how to do and she knows what she doesn't know how to do.

There's a couple of things she's contemplated trying, and when we'd done some research, she decided that she would need to do a lot more learning before she went ahead with it. Knife play is one of those things. She's very good with a knife, but she isn't comfortable with her knowledge of anatomy to explore that particular kink. She wants to learn a lot more before she tries it. She came to this conclusion when we researched the issue, and learned all risks. While I trust her not to do something she doesn't really know how to do, its my responsibility to make sure she has as much information available to her as possible.


I think that's laudable because that's where you two are, right now. It is possibly how you'll both always work.

I'm actually a pretty rubbish owned person..For ALL my *trust*, I still tend to be blessed with a vague air of *petrified*.I say *blessed* because it's rather handy when told to keep still, and I do....keep...........OH,SO STILL. :)

agirl






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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 2:35:24 AM   
Charnegui


Posts: 1352
Joined: 5/1/2011
From: Puzzled
Status: offline 		I do read a lot and I do have my experiences with some things.
If ever exposed to something I tend to be scarish about, I 'd say NO, this is the hard limit.

But untill now I only have known one Master and he is carefull, he knows my darkest thoughts so I will give him the benefits of doubt. But I stay on, I never dissapear in subspace then. I just vanish when feeling myself save.

But I think safety is something you're both responsible for, in a scene or not.
I know my body and how it reacts in almost all situations.


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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 3:26:27 AM   
HannahLynHeather


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Status: offline 		that makes perfect fucking sense to me agirl.

we do it our way because we are very verbal. we talk about fucking everything, so its really rare for me to spring something on her we haven't talked about.


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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 3:30:41 AM   
VaguelyCurious


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Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		FR

Even with the safest players in the world, mistakes can happen. That's why people talk about RACK rather than SSC. Two people taking responsibility for safety instead of one can halve that risk. It's not that people shouldn't trust their partners if their partners are trustworthy, it's that even trustworthy people aren't 100% infallible.

<ed to add a crucial 'n't'.>

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 6/22/2011 3:31:37 AM >

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 3:43:40 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Joined: 5/21/2011
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Status: offline
quote:

If ever exposed to something I tend to be scarish about, I 'd say NO, this is the hard limit.
Oh Lord! if I did that we never would have done anything kinky.

You want to whip my titties with a riding crop!!!!?
You want to shove THAT up my ass!!!!!?
You want to stick needles through my nipples!!!!?

LOL I was terrified each and every time she suggested something, and like agirl said, there's still a "petrified" thing going on, even for something we've done many times before. She can do whatever she wants to with me, but I don't think I'm out of line making sure she's aware of and has taken into account the various risks involved.

And there's another reason why I have to learn as much as possible, Hanners is a switch, she likes to bottom sometimes, so I have to know how to do some these things as well.

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 3:44:05 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

that makes perfect fucking sense to me agirl.

we do it our way because we are very verbal. we talk about fucking everything, so its really rare for me to spring something on her we haven't talked about.



What works, works and that's really where it's at.

agirl




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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 3:53:58 AM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		I think anyone who plays on either side should educate themselves as much as possible.

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 3:56:47 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I think anyone who plays on either side should educate themselves as much as possible.



This

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 4:04:41 AM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

Even though I only bottom for people who have great references & who I believe know how to hurt me without harming me, I've never taken on too much of the responsibility for learning about how to keep myself safe. I mean, I know that a top shouldn't be striking my kidneys & that sort of basic stuff. But that's about it.


Wow, scary story. When I pro-subbed, I generally stayed in the mental headspace that the client might not know what he was doing and I did not abdicate responsibility. I was mostly unable to reach subspace, which I think was a wise precaution in this case. So often the hottest part of the scene for me was turning over my fee to Master afterwards.

When my husband and I were new, we went to demos and watched and listened before we attempted anything dangerous on our own. He also started very slowly and checked in frequently.

These days, I seek men with years of experience, preferably who are members of the local scene and can provide references. I want to feel absolutely confident that he can hurt me without harming me before we begin. It sounds like the woman in your example DID have that expectation and I don't know what she could have done differently.

ETA - ok, she could have learned about fire cupping too.




< Message edited by kalikshama -- 6/22/2011 4:07:52 AM >

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 4:07:48 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

If ever exposed to something I tend to be scarish about, I 'd say NO, this is the hard limit.
Oh Lord! if I did that we never would have done anything kinky.

You want to whip my titties with a riding crop!!!!?
You want to shove THAT up my ass!!!!!?
You want to stick needles through my nipples!!!!?

LOL I was terrified each and every time she suggested something, and like agirl said, there's still a "petrified" thing going on, even for something we've done many times before. She can do whatever she wants to with me, but I don't think I'm out of line making sure she's aware of and has taken into account the various risks involved.

And there's another reason why I have to learn as much as possible, Hanners is a switch, she likes to bottom sometimes, so I have to know how to do some these things as well.


I have a different situation.....quite obviously so :) I don't really expend as much energy as I once did describing him or *us*. I've either become more idle or I've said it all before....lol

For M and I, he has always had that responsibility...

It might not be fair, but who cares? It's our choice...........Who cares that I don't have it?  Our choice again. I'm just used to him doing all the legwork if something needs legwork.

If he's going to stick it to me, in me or on me..... He's Mr Totally Prepared...lol

Even hospital staff leave him to it.:). I had a biopsy last year, and he pretty much ran the show.

There was a moment when we both almost snorted with laughter when a nurse told him that he may *need to sit down, as many people aren't good with seeing needles being inserted in their SO*....He just replied* I'll be fine with that, thank you*....lol

agirl







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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 4:10:09 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		Last year there was a thread by someone who was brand new to BDSM suffered severe damage to one of her breasts due to badly done breast bondage.

Not only was the breast tissue severed from the coopers ligaments which support the breast but the bondage was tight enough that it caused part of her breast to become necrotic requiring her to lose 2/3 of it.
The dom said he had 30 years experience.

She was not certain if this was something that occurred in one session or over several...but it happened because she did not know anything and placed her trust in the wrong person.



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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 4:10:54 AM   
HannahLynHeather


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quote:

He just replied* I'll be fine with that, thank you*....lol
LMAO!! no shit!!!



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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 4:22:31 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		Dear God! That's a horrible tale. The poor girl.
quote:

placed her trust in the wrong person.
That's the key point right there. You have to know you are trusting the right person. Hanners' willingness to admit she doesn't know something, and her eagerness to have me help her figure out the risks and methods to minimize them is what makes me think I haven't made the mistake she did. How can you not trust somebody who says she just doesn't know enough about something she really want to do and will have to learn how to do it properly before she tries it?.

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 4:27:38 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I think both sides carry responsibility and if you don't know somebody well enough, it's criminally insane to not know what is going on.

I wish I'd have some money for each and every time subs requested something that I considered far too risky and explained why, and they still tried to blag me into it. I mean "Sorry, I won't do that because...." should be clear, but you see it on the boards all the time, somebody telling others an activity is "harmless" because they had it done to them.

Seriously, I'd be the worst sub ever, if it was my body that would be on the receiving end, I would want to be damned sure that the person dishing it out knows what s/he is doing, I'd inform myself, because lasting damages are simply NOT FUN!

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 4:28:43 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		She got a lot of shit for her post.
Some people were blaming her.
There is a big difference between blame and personal responsibility.

She had no knowledge and he reassured her that he had 30 years experience.
If you are so new to this that you don't know anything then really it is very hard to know when things aren't going right...is that pain and discomfort after play "normal" or not. Is that pain or discomfort during play normal or not.

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RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating th... - 6/22/2011 5:19:13 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't need to know more than him. What I needed was to know that he doesn't try things without first researching them so he will be doing it safely.

Besides, as the woman Linnea quoted said, she was in subspace and couldn't communicate to him that something was wrong. And that's always the sticking point to me. If I have to be on guard, and can't relax and enjoy it, then I'm not going to do it.

Now I have no problem researching new things when he's interested in them and sending him a bunch of links to start learning from, but I'm not going to be the one in charge. And if I have to be hypervigilant that means I am ready to take charge at any moment.


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