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RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/19/2011 10:55:13 AM

Termyn8or

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FR

How do you legislate something like this ? First of all I agree that it would be a very rare instance in which a two year old's actions would warrant corporal punishment. However how do we know ? Hitting smaller children would probably qualify, but I can't think of much else. Now at five or six, if they keep running out into the street or something truly dangerous like that, positive, assured action is required, because getting run over by a car hurts more.

My paternal Grandmother had a cure for playing with the stove. "Hot" is another one of those words that comes first. He was told and kept playing with the stove. She showed my Father what hot meant. No, she didn't burn his hand to a crisp or anything of the sort, but she showed him EXACTLY what hot meant.

Is that abuse ? Well just how sweet is life if you get run over by a car or the house burns down ?

And that's the hard part - intent. You NEVER hit a child in anger, at least until they're teenagers (lol). But used properly corporal punishment is like aversion therapy. But how do we know how it came about. Just like adults, someone gets beat up, sometimes you might ask why. Last I checked Utopia didn't exist.

A friend of mine told me about getting his "ass kicked" alot when he was young. Oh so terrible, what can we do ? Well over the years he came to tell me of all the stupid shit he did, and really that'll beget some second thoughts. Actually one of the reasons I respect him is because as a teenager he threw an abusive stepfather the fuck out the house. Probably for the best, because another guy I know went to prison. His Dad died and Mom got remarried. Her new Husband abused the living shit out of her and the kids, and stole all her money which came from Dad's pension. He and his brother tried to kill the prick and they both went down for attempted murder. For trying to protect their Mother.

There is really too much to this issue to resolve easily. The only way is for adults to act like adults. To shed anger and other childish emotions and act right and be right. I'm still waiting.

T^T

(in reply to GreedyTop)

Post #: 21

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/20/2011 12:48:45 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Children of that age are still generally wearing diapers. Hitting a child so hard that it leaves a mark through a diaper.... that's pretty hard.

Mine was potty trained at 2. Just saying...

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Post #: 22

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/20/2011 12:53:02 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Yes. Really. Spanking is ok- a pat on the ass. ...which is quite different then leaving marks...

Never spanked a kid, did ya. Ever seen one twist trying to avoid that smack? I used too. Would always end up with a bruise on my hip. I bruise quite easily.

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Post #: 23

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 8:50:01 AM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

some kids just need a good, swift smack in the ass. I know this because I was one of them. Did I listen when Mom said dont touch the stove? fuck no. Did I listen when Mom said don't play in the street? no.

what got through to me was mom, seeing me disobeying her, SMACKIN MY ASS!!

Did I ever repeat the actions that got me smacked?

oh FUCKING HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(edited for emphasis)

Whilst my mom would agree with you (she stopped hitting me when I had started defense classes and my hand was in her way to touch my face) I would disagree a lot.

Yes...I touched the stove...twice...so I am told...touched the hot iron...twice and was run over by a car twice (close 3 times though if the first would have happened it would have probably be my last move as that one was a bin emptying van...but I was behind and not underneath

).

Now...my list is endless and also includes aspects like riding the bicycle through the cellar window...

however, I can't see that any grounding and beatings from mum would have helped

as I followed my course "learning by doing"...

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Post #: 24

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 8:59:28 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

How do you legislate something like this ?

Here you go: "children have the right to be brought up without the use of force; physical punishment, the causing of psychological harm and other degrading measures are forbidden".

As example from this article (cant be arsed to translate our law myself) which explains a bit views from accross the globe, though its not very new as it is from 2004:

http://www.nospank.net/n-m67r.htm

_____________________________

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(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 25

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 9:01:56 AM

DesFIP

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You have to assume that although there was no abuse this time, there must have been neglect at least in the past. Or she wouldn't have had her parental rights removed from her in the past. It takes a lot to get a court to totally remove parental rights.

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RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 9:03:42 AM

sunshinemiss

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I didn't see anything that said parental rights were removed...

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Post #: 27

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 9:05:49 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Gonzales who doesn't have custody of the child or her other two children, is trying to get them back, but until CPS feels she is ready the kids are living with their paternal grandmother.

I think Desi is referring to this

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 28

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 9:09:19 AM

sunshinemiss

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... ah custody.... very different from rights. Thanks tazzy.

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Post #: 29

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 9:27:00 AM

Missokyst

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I would also add that many of us were potty trained well before age 2, so it is not always a case of being spanked through a diaper. In my own family we were all potty trained by our first birthday (my mom really hated changing diapers!).
As far as leaving a mark, it had to be a hard smack no matter how you look at it. A 2 yr old has very firm and resilient flesh. A spank would have left a mark immediately after, but is unlikely to have remained until change of custody. And speaking of custody, clearly there are issues since the paternal grandmother has physical custody. This suggests that not only is the mom's parenting skills in question, but the childs father as well. Were it not for the fact the mark lingered on the childs body long enough for the grandmother to notice it, I would think this might be a case where one party will bring up anything to show the other person is unfit.
I am amazed at how different the laws are now. When my children were small and went off for their weekend visits with their dad I would often find them with not only bruised backsides, sometimes there were welts from the hangers he used to discipline them. I took pictures of course, we went to court (in Los Angeles that was a 2 yr wait) and I was told this: "What evidence do you have of current injuries?" Of course, by that time he had flipped over to emotional and mental control.

I am not sure I am an advocate of a no spanking law, but there is a vast difference between a swat on the hiney, vs something hard enough to leave a mark long after the event. As adults we have the right to engage in that sort of play, for US it is consensual. Anything that will leave a mark on the resilient flesh of a child is not discipline, it is anger and loss of control.

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Post #: 30

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 9:35:41 AM

Termyn8or

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"Here you go: "children have the right to be brought up without the use of force; physical punishment, the causing of psychological harm and other degrading measures are forbidden". "

Instead of translating into law, how about reality ?

Children have the right to pull a pot of boiling water off the stove onto themself.

Children have the right to be run over by cars.

Children have the right to maim themself with power tools.

Shall I go on ? I said there are very rare instances, but the word rare means that some such instances do exist.

And now, instead of digressing further, there is probably more to this than what has been reported. As they interviewed this Mother, how did she respond ?

-"I told him to shut up twice and then I reddened his ass" or
-"He ran out in the street and almost got run over"

Although I will admit that even in the latter case, a two year old should not be ABLE to run out in the street. That would be neglect, in the form of inadequate supervision. But the stove or power tool issue, what about that ? Being responsible many Parents either lock up or get rid of their guns at some point so the kids don't get their hands on them. But how do you do that with a stove or a table saw (not the best example, but you get the idea) ? You can't have any sharp knives anymore either ? You have to draw the line somewhere.

T^T

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

Post #: 31

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 9:57:59 AM

needlesandpins

Posts: 3901
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

How do you legislate something like this ?

Here you go: "children have the right to be brought up without the use of force; physical punishment, the causing of psychological harm and other degrading measures are forbidden".

As example from this article (cant be arsed to translate our law myself) which explains a bit views from accross the globe, though its not very new as it is from 2004:

http://www.nospank.net/n-m67r.htm

that also translates into a load of bad mannered teens telling you to fuck off coz there's nothing you can do about it. these mamby-pamby laws are all well and good for the kids but it certainly doesn't teach them how to be good people.

a policeman told my mum that he dreads coming to our village when there is trouble caused by teens because the parents do sod all. the parents are scared of the kids because they kick off swearing and smashing things up. however, in another part of town the parents are as likely to give the kids a slap actually in front of the police and the kids are actually better behaved.

i would never have dared back chat my mum, she would have killed me. my mum was the law in our house and you stuck to the rules, if not your paid the price and it was always a high price no matter how small the misdemeanor (sp)

my friend's 5yr old daughter comes home with a proper stroppy attitude from school. when misbehaving with grandma she was told if she didn't stop she would get her bum smacked. she promptly stood there with her hands on her hips, feet apart and told grandma that she couldn't smack her because school had told her so. grandma told her that she was now home where home rule apply and she will get her bum smacked if she is naughty. mum is over lenient and it shows in the child's behaviour. the difference in her between mum and grandma is amazing.

needles

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

Post #: 32

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 10:14:45 AM

Charnegui

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quote:

Thank goodness the children are with someone who loves them.

Well, who says the mother doesnot love her children?

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RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 10:49:15 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

How do you legislate something like this ?

Here you go: "children have the right to be brought up without the use of force; physical punishment, the causing of psychological harm and other degrading measures are forbidden".

As example from this article (cant be arsed to translate our law myself) which explains a bit views from accross the globe, though its not very new as it is from 2004:

http://www.nospank.net/n-m67r.htm

that also translates into a load of bad mannered teens telling you to fuck off coz there's nothing you can do about it. these mamby-pamby laws are all well and good for the kids but it certainly doesn't teach them how to be good people.

Well, if you think that slapping etc. is necessary to raise kids to be good people then so be it, I disagree and am glad that this law was amended as it is now in place since 2001 or 2002....

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

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Post #: 34

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 11:17:49 AM

needlesandpins

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well i'm glad that i slapped my son's arse when he pushed his luck way too far. unlike my ex's first son who lived with his mother and was allowed to control her household and promptly kicked her on the shin when she said he couldn't have the remote to change the tv channel. he had no respect for her what-so-ever and ran riot. he was hell on legs when he used to come and stay with us until i put my foot down. so the system of counting to three was brought in, if i get to three you get your backside smacked. after the first time it worked very effectively. he was still a complete swine with his mother, but at our house he played by the rules.

kids need boundaries, and they need to know that there are consiquences for breaking them. giving children total rights takes them away from parents with detrimental results.

as i said before though, there is a world of difference between a slap on the arse and a beating. there is also a world of difference between the mild mannered, chilled out kid who won't say boo to a goose, and the tear away who just has to push that button.

sorry, but i'm all for tough love.

needles

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

Post #: 35

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 11:47:25 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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This:

quote:

Anything that will leave a mark on the resilient flesh of a child is not discipline, it is anger and loss of control.

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Post #: 36

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 2:21:05 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

This:

quote:

Anything that will leave a mark on the resilient flesh of a child is not discipline, it is anger and loss of control.

Some kids will bruise very easily, friend of mine had that problem and was suspected of child abuse, until the doc tried to restrain the child (kicking and screaming as it didn't want the vaccination) and it got bruises just from being held.

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Post #: 37

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 3:05:14 PM

sunshinemiss

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charnegui

quote:

Thank goodness the children are with someone who loves them.

Well, who says the mother doesnot love her children?

You misunderstand.

When children need to leave a home for their safety, it is always better if they go to soemone they know. Thank goodness someone who loves them could take them in.

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Post #: 38

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 6:08:48 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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I find it laughable that one comment on the article said grandma should be brought up on pedophilia charges case she was not a legal guardian and was looking at the child's naked butt. Some people are fruit loops with their idea's.

Spankings shouldn't leave marks long enough for Grandma to be able to see them. I don't know how long after it was, but on a child so little, yeah, the mom was dead in the water.

And I don't care how many of you remember the days when so and so displine giver told you to get a switch an switched you bloody, or you had welts an couldn't sit down for days. I still don't support leaving marks , or spanking them so soundly they can't sit for weeks, or days. on a body when you spank your off spring. If it was a complete freak accident, it's one thing, but quite another when it's excessive force.

< Message edited by Toppingfrmbottom -- 6/21/2011 6:29:08 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Mother Gets 5 Yrs Probation for Spanking Child - 6/21/2011 6:19:58 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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I was mostly potty trained at 2. I do have some pics of me as a 2 y.o in diapers, but that was before my parents adopted us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Children of that age are still generally wearing diapers. Hitting a child so hard that it leaves a mark through a diaper.... that's pretty hard.

Mine was potty trained at 2. Just saying...

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Post #: 40

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