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Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 2:02:09 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Seeing the threads that crop up here, and reading the "comments" section of online articles I read, I am struck by how many of us are moved to support people instead of the ideas that they advocate. It is as if one side can show that the other side has some sort of moral failing that everything that they stood for has now become less than it was and suspect.

People are rallied on the basis of personality rather than ideas, and they will support a personality even more than they support their ideas. We have conflated political ideology, personal life of leaders, and popularity based upon image.

I can actually like someone and dislike their ideology, I do not get the two confused. For example, I like Mike Huckleby. He is a charming and winning personality. He has a sense of humor, but I detest his politics.

What I see is an ideation of what certain leaders embody, like Ronald Reagan, or Sarah Palin, but it is this idea of who they are and what they stand for, like caricatures of something.

I suppose Obama has the same sort of support. Those who see him as this polished suave leader, a professor type, the "intellectual"... and that feeds into his mythos.

I used to get into this mindset and defend people instead of their ideas, but then I had a relationship with a bona fide political activist, my first dom. He taught me an important lesson about politics... if you stand up for your ideas instead of the people who are vocalizing them, you will get further in realizing them. We all have clay feet. None of us are perfect. If we get caught up in personalities instead of our ideas we lose sight of the larger picture.


I do not think the personal life of most of the politicians in this country matters as long as it isn't incompatible with their political ideology. In other words, if you publicly come out against homosexuality while you are sexually harassing your same sex interns, well, that is a problem. If you advocate against industrial pollution and then invest with gross polluters, well that is a problem.

What I see that I find sorta sad and funny at the same time is people who will go to the ends of the earth to find scandal on someone they dislike politically, and then feel smug when they dig something up, as if that says to the other side "look, your ideas are bad"... no, it does not make their ideas bad, it makes their leaders flawed.


I see several threads going on about a certain idiot politician who will probably never get elected to even dog catcher of Wasilla, and I think, "Why all this energy about this person? She is a nobody. She does not have any sort of credibility"... and it comes down to Cult of Personality trying to disguise itself as real issues and some sort of ideas about something substantial. It just isn't....

There are a couple of politicians I admire. If someone were to show me that they had feet of clay tomorrow it would not change my mind about my ideas. It would not impact my commitment to them. I wonder why all the energy gets invested in protecting images instead of the ideas....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 3:34:13 PM   
IceDemeter


Posts: 84
Status: offline 		Interesting thoughts - thank you!

It also leads me to wonder why so many folks look at the party first, the person second, and the idea last. If an idea is good, why should it matter the party or the person who originated it?

If you (general "you") see a problem in your community or your nation and hear of a plausible solution that makes sense to you, but it originated with a person you dislike and is a representative of the party you oppose --- how open are you to hearing that solution? How open are you to pushing to have that solution put in to action? For that matter, would you even have, or take, the opportunity to hear their idea in the first place?

Solutions, or at least the first steps to solutions, are out there - we just need to be open-minded enough to consider ideas before first considering the source.

(Please note: I said "ideas" not "facts" --- for me to consider something a "fact" then you'd better believe I take the source into consideration!)



(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 4:43:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Well, in the recent healthcare debate, the solution that was adopted was originally one that was supported by republicans, but they distanced themselves from it because they did not want to be seen supporting anything that the other party was.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to IceDemeter)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 4:43:56 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Party leaders, those vying for election have more in common with a salesman as that is what they are doing, trying to sell the populace themselves first followed by their party and finally their ideas, the latter of which can change on a whim.

Personally, I tend to treat the political salesman more like the used car lot salesman, and that through experience, for what they say always turns out to be not what everyone imagined they were sold.

But beware charisma, for it can lead us down dark paths.

From here over the pond, we stand in awe at your razzmatazz come election time and wonder do you know what you are doing, as the biggest razzmatazz does not always equal the best leader, but those with the most money to spend on seeking power.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to IceDemeter)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 4:49:20 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not think there is much we can do to stop that. Election reform will never happen because the people who have control over changing it don't want to. Not to mention that our supreme court said that campaign donations are free speech, which effectively pumped even more money into the system.

Media outlets that could talk about this issue don't, because they profit from the current system, also... it is a real canard

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 5:13:04 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I got a way, beware the razzmatazz, avoid the theatre and listen to what the less wealthy who run without the big circus have to say, for it may be despite not having the money, they have more to say.

In this country I largely vote for the independant, not the party for what we have is the same term in term out, nothing really changes, but I desire a change from the usual, so I like many others who are fed up with the usual, vote outside of the popular block. I seek an end to the conservatives and labour and new labour and the ass holes that call themselves lib dem or as they are in coalition with the tories, the Con dem. I seek real change if I must vote at all, which now is rarely for I do not see in any a viable leader I have confidence in following or supporting, for to me they all seem like pigs snuffling for the trough.

Even here, the politicians vying for election are starting to follow the American design, but with me I am all too aware of the sharp suit and glib tongue for I know speeches that motivate come from speech writers, not the gob that speaks as if it cares.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 5:18:00 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		A man that I have favored for years ran for POTUS twice. He is "unelectable" because he is short and his suits do not fit right, and I guess this is way more important than his platform, which makes him unelectable too

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 5:28:46 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Perhaps you and we are being hoodwinked by attractive packaging, but if it is the packaging we buy, don't be surprised when the contents do not live upto expection, for the bright packaging has connefd us towards the contents.

Ever seen a shop window that is all so well done that it promises so much inside that it stops us from our walk to look inside and there find the shop was all window dressing and nothing more, perhaps the same coulds be said for many who run for the trough.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 6:14:14 PM   
eihwaz


Posts: 367
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline 		However, we elect people not ideas.  In supporting a political candidate, we're supporting not only the ideas they represent, but their ability to implement and advocate for those ideas, to lead, to accomplish, and to successfully navigate the politics of issues.

I agreed with many of Jimmy Carter's ideas, but he was a poor leader.  I hated most of Ronald Reagan's positions, but he was a formidable leader.

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 6/5/2011 6:23:52 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 6:17:12 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Even on the issues there are triggar words- that set people into the cult mode.

I see that even on this board.   Almost like people are hypnotized into a zombie when certain words are said.

(in reply to eihwaz)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 6:27:27 PM   
eihwaz


Posts: 367
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IceDemeter
[...]  it originated with a person you dislike and is a representative of the party you oppose --- how open are you to hearing that solution? How open are you to pushing to have that solution put in to action? For that matter, would you even have, or take, the opportunity to hear their idea in the first place? [...]


An argument against AGW oft repeated on these boards is that Al Gore is a hypocritical self-interested dweeb.

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 6/5/2011 6:28:03 PM >

(in reply to IceDemeter)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 6:40:14 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: IceDemeter
[...]  it originated with a person you dislike and is a representative of the party you oppose --- how open are you to hearing that solution? How open are you to pushing to have that solution put in to action? For that matter, would you even have, or take, the opportunity to hear their idea in the first place? [...]


An argument against AGW oft repeated on these boards is that Al Gore is a hypocritical self-interested dweeb.



Yes... that is exactly what I am talking about.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to eihwaz)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 7:04:32 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
An argument against AGW oft repeated on these boards is that Al Gore is a hypocritical self-interested dweeb.



Yes... that is exactly what I am talking about.



So then, you don't really know what you are talking about, do you, Julia? The demonization of Al Gore as a personification of the corruption and deceit within the global warming cult is a completely different sort of situation from the cult of personality that brings a politician to god-like status among his followers. Demons are interchangeable. Divine heroes, not so much.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 7:31:42 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		You are correct, yes you are but only in...the real world. However in the political class, one must accept their lies, outlandish hypocrisy, pompous arrogance and sense of entitlement.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 7:37:08 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I think Americans are confused. Usually if I don't like the person I won't like their personality either. So no matter how nice Mike Huckabee is because I don't like his politics I don't like him as a person as well. For example, he is against abortion but after the baby is born he doesn't believe in giving much assistance to raise the child properly. That's why I consider his position of right to life to be disingenuous. He is in favor of right to life up until the baby is born.

In addition, I find Americans to be confused because they don't know enough about their country and are mixed up about a lot of other facts. For example,


11 Bizarrely Wrong Beliefs Americans Have About Themselves

Below are ten further surprising survey results revealing some of Americans' mistaken beliefs about their country -- and world.


1. Foreign Aid Costs the Government a Lot
2. The Health-Care Law Has Been Repealed
3. What Three Branches of Government Are
4. Who Wrote the Gospels
5. Where in the World the United Kingdom Is
6. We All Drive Well
7. Who the Vice President Is
8. Public Broadcasting Costs the Government Tons
9. The Sun Revolves Around The Earth

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/06/ten-bizarrely-mistaken-beliefs-americans-hold-about-themselves/239810/#slide1


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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 7:38:09 PM   
IceDemeter


Posts: 84
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
An argument against AGW oft repeated on these boards is that Al Gore is a hypocritical self-interested dweeb.



Yes... that is exactly what I am talking about.



So then, you don't really know what you are talking about, do you, Julia? The demonization of Al Gore as a personification of the corruption and deceit within the global warming cult is a completely different sort of situation from the cult of personality that brings a politician to god-like status among his followers. Demons are interchangeable. Divine heroes, not so much.


Or, perhaps, it's exactly right. The personality and salesmanship of Al Gore makes him a divine hero to some, and a demon to others. Some people assumed that everything that Al Gore said about global warming was truth based simply on the fact that it was Al Gore who said it. Others dismiss even the possibility of climate change, again based simply on the fact that it was Al Gore who said it. Then there are people who chose one stance or another based on the fact of which political party Al Gore represented, without ever hearing the message at all.

From my perspective, the demons and divine heros aappear equally interchangeable - it all depends on whether the person is judging the message, the messenger, or the party of the messenger.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 7:44:37 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I think Americans are confused. Usually if I don't like the person I won't like their personality either. So no matter how nice Mike Huckabee is because I don't like his politics I don't like him as a person as well. For example, he is against abortion but after the baby is born he doesn't believe in giving much assistance to raise the child properly. That's why I consider his position of right to life to be disingenuous. He is in favor of right to life up until the baby is born.


There are many people I meet on a daily basis I think of as "likable", some of them even hold opinions like the one you despise above. I know of one guy that would donate time and money to the food bank to help families that did not have much, yet was against the government getting involved. He wasn't a terrible person.

I suppose I try to separate people from their wrong headed opinions. I do not want to become that which I dislike, meaning so closed minded that I refuse to get to know someone as a human being because they have a different opinion from my own. Mostly I gravitate towards people who think like I do, but I do not assume someone isn't likable because I do not like their politics... hell, I never get to know the politics of many people I am acquainted with (and that is probably a good thing).


As to the rest of your post, you do not seem to like Americans very much with that link which is seemingly out of left field. I cannot imagine why you would post it, other than you think that those of us contributing to this thread have similar ideas. Americans consume news from sources intent on keeping them ignorant. If this is some sort of larger than life realization you intended to impart to us as a lesson, epic fail, I have known this for years.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Brain)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 7:52:29 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
An argument against AGW oft repeated on these boards is that Al Gore is a hypocritical self-interested dweeb.



Yes... that is exactly what I am talking about.



So then, you don't really know what you are talking about, do you, Julia? The demonization of Al Gore as a personification of the corruption and deceit within the global warming cult is a completely different sort of situation from the cult of personality that brings a politician to god-like status among his followers. Demons are interchangeable. Divine heroes, not so much.



Ah right,make most scientests part a cult......

How mature....

Your PNAC neo-cons buddies who got us into Iraq much more resemble a cult,actual secrete meetings,secrete agendas,scofflaw belligerence and the capacity to kill people and/or get them killed.

PNAC is much closer to a charlie manson group than the world`s leading climatologists nerds are.



I mean,you guys tortured people......jeezzzz.

What`s more charlie manson scary than that?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 7:59:49 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Or, perhaps, it's exactly right. The personality and salesmanship of Al Gore makes him a divine hero to some, and a demon to others. Some people assumed that everything that Al Gore said about global warming was truth based simply on the fact that it was Al Gore who said it. Others dismiss even the possibility of climate change, again based simply on the fact that it was Al Gore who said it. Then there are people who chose one stance or another based on the fact of which political party Al Gore represented, without ever hearing the message at all.

From my perspective, the demons and divine heros aappear equally interchangeable - it all depends on whether the person is judging the message, the messenger, or the party of the messenger.


And then there are some of us that worried about the topic long before Al Gore became famous as a talking head advocating for it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to IceDemeter)
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RE: Politics and the Cult of Personality - 6/5/2011 8:12:55 PM   
IceDemeter


Posts: 84
Status: offline
quote:

And then there are some of us that worried about the topic long before Al Gore became famous as a talking head advocating for it


Sorry to put you personally on the spot, but I'm curious: since it was an area that you were already learning about, was it easier to divorce the messenger from the message? Did you find your opinions on the subject modified at all by your feelings about the "talking head"?

I know for me personally, I do find that easier when I've already independently researched something. I sometimes have to make a conscious decision to ignore where the message is coming from when it's an idea that's new to me. In politics especially I have to do this when issues or solutions are first brought up by someone who I have a personal distaste for (whether it be to their personality, their politics, or their verbosity).

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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